Search This Blog

Friday, June 15, 2007

Were believers required to murder???

Lava comments:

Sorry to drag this back up, but you moved past the EAE so quickly I didn't have time to think about it.

You said: Now, I grant you that the EAE is not required to murder anyone. As stated in the previous post, he may wish to avoid being apprehended and punished by society or he may simply not wish to murder someone else. You also talk a good deal about Christian values and morals and that they are the basis for many countries' legal systems.

But, Radar, aren't you and the rest of the countries that base their morals/values/laws off the bible really picking and choosing which morals/values/laws you like. If this is truly the word of god, shouldn't we be following everything?

Leviticus alone lays down many "rules" that aren't followed. Why?

~~~~~~~

Good question! The laws found in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy were the laws given by God to the children of Israel as they entered into Canaan. Murder, incest, adultery, child sacrifice, sex with animals, prostitution-as-sacrament, all sorts of such behavior was common to the people who inhabited the area. God didn't want such behavior to continue. We believe that up unto that time there was a generally accepted code of behavior passed down from Adam through Noah through Abraham and so on. But God chose to give the Law very specifically to Moses at this time, to make sure the behavior of His people was appropriate. When you look at these laws, they were largely meant to either uphold the Ten Commandments, keep law and order among the people or keep them healthy. For instance, the dietary laws make a lot of sense for people with no access to refrigeration and a dependence on fire to cook meats. Incest laws had become necessary with the devolution of the human gene pool. Marriage between siblings was necessary in the beginning of mankind and common even up until the time of the giving of these laws. We know now that intermarriage between siblings and often even first cousins and other close relatives can bring on birth defects.

~~~~~~~

Back to Lava, quoting from the Book of Leviticus:

Both parties in adultery shall be executed. 20:10 ("And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.")

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." 20:9

20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

Radar, as someone who takes the bible literally, do you think we should be killing people for adultery, beastiality, cursing their parents, working on Sundays...? Is there some sort of metaphor I am missing?

Again, you said the "EAE is not required to murder anyone". Are christians required to murder people if the bible is to be read literally?

~~~~~~~~

(The Sabbath was/is Saturday, not Sunday, by the way...)

Keep in mind that these laws were being given, not just as religious instructions, but part of a form of government. God was the acknowledged head of the Children of Israel, with Moses and Aaron and the priests as both religious and civil leaders. Therefore we have both moral proclamations and legal statutes being given at the same time.

Anyone put to death by these statutes had to be found guilty by a form of trial and executed under the law. No murder was done in this circumstance. Keep in mind also that the commandment; "Thou shalt not kill" should be literally translated as "thou shalt not murder." It was determined by God that some offenses were "hanging offenses" worthy of execution.

Don't miss that much of these books focus on all the sacrifices and offerings required of the Children of Israel to make an atonement for sin. In fact, these were ceremonial and God accepted the sacrifices as symbolic of a real atonement that would someday come. Jesus Christ made that atonement, was, in fact, that atonement. By fulfilling the Law, Christ then ended the Law as the standard by which the Jews and all believers would have to live.

Galatians 3:1-14 illustrates this: 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Paul is writing by inspiration of God and here is reminding believers that the Law is no longer the standard for believers...

3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

So the law was "nailed to the cross" and no longer in effect judicially.

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c]

This is why God tore the incredibly thick veil that covered the Holy of Holies in the Temple from the top down when Christ was crucified, for He wanted the Jews to understand that the old sacrificial laws were gone, the Law was fulfilled and now faith in Christ was the only way to God. This is why Jesus predicted that the Temple would be destroyed as a judgment of God (Matthew 24) and why John spent much of the book of Revelations predicting the same thing. This is why, in AD 70, the Romans tore the Temple down completely and killed almost the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem. The Law was fulfilled in Christ and now believers are to be led by the Spirit of God and not the letter of the Law found in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.


There is plenty of teaching of this in the New Testament. Here is an excerpt from Romans chapter 8:

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

The attempt to obey laws and sacrifice animals was God's plan for mankind before Christ. Those who did so with a whole heart were considered to be God's children by God. Those who did so hypocritically or for show were the same guys that Jesus had the harshest words for during His ministry. But the desire to love God wasn't enough, God needed to make a way to deal with sin, which was fulfilled in Jesus. He legally fulfilled the Law for us, then took our penalty for failing, then rose from the dead as the firstfruits of all of us who will live on in eternity thereafter. Not only do we get legally declared as forgiven, when we accept Christ he makes an actual change in us, by filling us with the Spirit of God.

Now, you may not understand some of this and certainly I didn't either. But when I decided I believed God and did accept Christ, I was amazed that I actually felt a change inside. I was filled with a great peace way beyond what I had ever known. I have also found myself wanting to be a Godly man ever since. I have to fight with my sinful desires, but I do prefer to beat them now rather than agree with them.

Martin Luther was inspired to lead man away from ritual worship with no spiritual component and lead the Protestant movement because of this phrase:
"The righteous will live by faith." Now Christians are called upon to live by faith and not the letter of the law.

With respect to the judicial system, which is a different subject altogether, our country has laws based upon the Ten Commandments and the principles of law set forth in the Pentateuch. You do realize that it was God that required two or more witnesses in a trial setting and required some kind of judge to determine the meting out of punishment rather than rule by mob. If anyone is put to death in this country by the government, it is an execution determined by the law. Sadly, we have strayed from a Biblical viewpoint in some areas and child sacrifice is practiced legally today. Some call it abortion and I call it murder. But that is another topic, isn't it?

PS- I should mention that while the Law is "nailed to the cross" for those who accept Christ, it remains the standard by which non-believers will be judged. Anyone who denies Christ and chooses not to accept His gift will then be judged by God according to the Law. Unfortunately, no one other than Christ could keep the Law, so....

Also, I am amazed that there are still practicing Jews. Jesus was a Jew, all his followers were Jews and most of the early Christians were Jews. God made it clear that both Jew and Gentile were able to be saved but that the old religion was gone. The temple veil was ripped in two. The Temple was torn down and thrown away. Yet, there are many who call themselves Jews who follow some of the Law in part? I wish that all who call themselves Jews would come to Christ, but I cannot understand how one could logically believe that one could be an "Orthodox Jew" without Temple sacrifices?

18 comments:

scohen said...


Also, I am amazed that there are still practicing Jews.


Radar, Don't be amazed, the answer is rather simple. You know how strange and implausible a Muslim's stories sound to you? That's how your stories sound to a Jewish person.

Come to think of it, even our stories sound strange and implausible to us.

Anonymous said...

"We believe that up unto that time there was a generally accepted code of behavior passed down from Adam through Noah through Abraham and so on."

Is it thought that that "generally accepted code of behavior" included not killing, stealing etc? Or were the Ten Commandments a huge innovation in that regard?

"Marriage between siblings was necessary in the beginning of mankind and common even up until the time of the giving of these laws."

Why was it necessary?

"We know now that intermarriage between siblings and often even first cousins and other close relatives can bring on birth defects."

What, and God didn't know this at the time? Something like this certainly would indicate that the law was man-made based on scientific knowledge of the time, not by an all-knowing God who didn't want to saddle his children with birth defects.

"I should mention that while the Law is "nailed to the cross" for those who accept Christ, it remains the standard by which non-believers will be judged."

So would you advocate that non-believers today should be put to death for working on a Saturday or cursing their parents?

Jack Shepard for President said...

Republican Presidential Candidate Jack Shepard, http://www.jackshepardforpresident.com

“Gosh did it take this long to realize”.

Press Release June 19, 2007

Republican Presidential Candidate Jack Shepard, http://www.jackshepardforpresident.com demands 100% American leadership in any future relationship with Israel.

If Israel wish continued American support then Israel will immediately to do as President Bush and Secretary of State Rice ask of them.

The true facts Israel for over 40 years has been using and controlling American while getting over 7 Billion dollars a year in gifts, loan and military equipment.

Israeli Government has used our American 7 Billion Dollars per year of aid and military equipment to spread terror throughout the Palestinian Occupied territories. Israel have infiltrated our Government with moles that advise our Presidents, The Israeli lobby Aipac.org blackmails our politicians if you do not support Israel we will end your political career.

For the very future and safety of America, enough is enough. It is time for America to regain control and dictate the terms of any future relationship between America and Israel if Israel wish continued American aid etc. Israel will do exactly as President Bush spelled out in 2003 and immediately follow everyone of President Bush’s and Secretary Rice proposal for peace in the Middle East if they wish to have our support.

I am on record as creating the state of Palestine within the first 100 days of my administration. this will come to pass. The vast mjorrity of the Jews in the WORLD; the Jews in ISRAEL wish an immediate end to violence and the creation of the states of Palestine living in peace with Israel.

I repeat the present Israeli Prime Minister has 10% popularity, what does that say how the Israeli population thinks about his popularity and performance.

Republican Presidential Candidate Jack Shepard stands with the American Sailors and their families of the U.S.S. Liberty,

The USS Liberty was an unarmed American Intelligence ship who was well within international water at the time of a savage attack by a coordinated Israeli air and sea attack for a period of over 1 and 1/2 hours.

The Israeli Military was trying to sink and kill the entire American crew of the American USS Liberty and blame the attack on the Egyptian Military. Israeli warplanes continually attacked the USS Liberty with napalm bombs burning 34 American sailors to death while at the same time the well coordinated attack used several Israeli torpedo boats to torpedo the USS Liberty is every effort to sink it and to kill the entire American crew to leave no witness to the brutal Israeli attach that the Highest levels of the Israel leadership planned this attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967 to get American support to join them in their attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

After over 40 years candidate Jack Shepard promises to end the cover-up of an act of Israeli Aggression on our American sailors.

Israel has not changed in over 40 years; most recently the Isreali’s were so willing to get America involved in the military aspect of their war and abuse of their Arab neighbours that the Israeli Secret Service; had knowledge that could have prevented the group of Arab terrorists that flow the airplanes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon but refused to warn America and happily watched as over 3,000 American were killed in those terrorist attacks.

The Israeli Intelligence Agents who at one time lived only one block away from the mastermind of the Twin Tower attacks did not warn American about the planned attack on the Twin Tower in New York on purpose. The Israeli Agents had knowledge that could have prevented the group of Arab terrorists that flow the airplanes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon because that the Israeli Intelligence Agents were wiretapping and had these terrorist under surveillance for months.

As the Fox Television News Stations was quoted after reviewing the Israeli connection with the 911 attack on the Twin Towers in New York and the Pentagon. Fox News said, “How could the Israeli Secret Service Intelligence agents have not known in advance of the planned attack on the Twin Towers.”

But again like the bulged Israeli attack and attempt to sink the USS Liberty and hoping to kill ever American Sailor on broad; the Israeli government at its highest levels know about the planned attack on the Twin Tower and the Pentagon but happily did not warn America to prevent it because the Israel Government wished the American people to suffer a terrible terrorist attack on America Soil, so the American Military would support the Israel military cause even more.

ALL PUBLIC RECORD NYPD-Some Israel Special Agents were even seen in a parking lot across from the Twin Towers with cameras jumping up and down laughing before and just waiting to take pictures of the airplanes as they actually struck the Twin Towers.

They were laughing and dance while taking photos of this the most terrible attack on American soil be terrorists as the airplane struck the Twin Towers killing over 3,000 of my fellow American citizens.. A neighbour wrote the License number of their van and called the New York Police Department. Several hours later, a their van with the same licence plate and the same men who where in the parking lot laughing at the burning Twin Towers were arrested.

The photos of the Twin Towers were found in their possession and the people were in fact agents of the Israel Secret Intelligence Service, with special experience in wire taping ans surveillance working out of an under cover front moving company that just closed the next day.

They were held for a month by the New York Police and were quickly allowed to fly back to Israel after High level people in the government gave in to the pressure from the ISREALI GOVERNMENT.

As President of the United States our complete relationship with Israel will have to be reviewed before the continued action of the Israeli Government makes America the most hated country in the world only because we stand silently by and let Israel run out of control.

American Presidents, “President Johnson” in the past literally let Israel get away with murdering 34 American sailors on the USS. Israel by not warning us of a massive terrorist attack that could have prevent the death and misery of over 3,000 people and their families once and for all proves Israel is no REAL Friend of America.

The Sailors of the U.S.S. Liberty. I, Jack Shepard
will never forget you until you and your families get the justice you so bravely deserve.

The Navy League has set forth many objectives. Among them is
• To improve the understanding and appreciation of those who wear the uniforms of our armed forces and to better the conditions under which they live and serve.

I, Jack Shepard is a Republican Candidate for President; a Veteran American Service Officer and as a member of the Navy League of the United States. I strongly support the Navy League of the United States Mission.

Jack Shepard, a Republican Candidate for the President statement concerning the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty June 8, 1967.

"If I am elected your next President; I swear and promise to all American Sailors and their families of the U.S.S. Liberty. I will not forget you or your families. I swear until you receive formal apologies and are fully compensated by the Israeli Government. I will block all transfers of all and any American funds, loans, grants, gifts and transfer of military equipment to Israel.”

CLICK TO SEE Video of the Israeli Military attempting to sink the U.S.S. Liberty, June 8, 1967.

At http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/18.html >>IT SHOWS THE ISRAELI USE OF NAPALM TO BURN 34 AMERICAN SAILORS TO DEATH.

Israel’s well-coordinated, multi-wave assault including napalm killing and burning to death 34 American Sailors and injuring 171 of your loved ones will no longer be covered up.

It is only by the formal apologies and the fully compensated to all the American Sailors and their families of the USS Liberty by the Israeli Government can we guarantee that our brave American sailors who wear the uniforms of our armed forces will never be so brutally attacked not by an enemy but a so-called ally for political reasons.


These apologies from the Israeli Government for their well-coordinated and well planned attach on our American USS Liberty will finally after 40 years give the sailors and families of the USS Liberty closure.


“May God bless them. I am looking forward to the day where finally the history of their bravery will be corrected in the annuals of our American Naval History.”

Dr. Jack Shepard

To read more visit the Shepard for President

Official Web Site at: http://www.jackshepardforpresident.com
Contact:jack@jackshepardforpresident.com

cranky old fart said...

"By fulfilling the Law, Christ then ended the Law as the standard by which the Jews and all believers would have to live."

Which, of course, Jesus himself never said. Which you would think might be an important point for his fellow Jews.

cranky old fart said...

The Law. Enjoy.

radar said...

scohen,

I always admire your sense of humor...

Glad you understand I am not anti-Jew, in fact the scripture says that I am a "Jew of the heart" because I have received Christ. I am just saying, how do Jews just ignore the sacrificial aspects of the original laws given in the Pentateuch?

radar said...

Cranky, in Matthew 5:17, Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

In Luke 24:44-47 -

"He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Jesus did, in fact, teach this...

radar said...

Anonymous, did you actually read the post? The basic teachings of the Law were passed down verbally and may have also been placed on tablets before the time of Moses within the family. But God was establishing a government at this time and a government needs a specific set of ordinances, which the Law provided.

Killing and stealing were far more common among the natives of Canaan, as were other barbaric practices.

Sister-marrying was necessary since the world began with one couple, think about it! But with new and perfect dna bereft of mutations there was no biological reason not to marry a sister/brother. So to further the population growth it was therefore best to put no limitations biologically on what man and what woman could marry. There was no team of scientists among the Jews at that time who had done a study and advised God about genetics. He is the Creator and He was the one who determined that the time had come to end such marriages for the good of the population to come.

Skipping down several generations and about three thousand years, mutations in dna now become an issue. So God prohibited relationships that were biologically unsafe. In addition, with a large population living in close proximity, He put an end to relationships that could cause great strife within families. Thus the idea of incest was established on biological and psychological grounds.

Non-believers today are not part of the Nation of Israel during the time of Moses. The laws of that government were a basis of the laws of today, true. But I am pretty sure that working on Saturday and cursing your parents are not against the law in the good old USA. No one will be judged for doing things like that while on Earth. Non-believers have to wait to face God after death to deal with such things. I have a sneaking suspicion that there will be more than cursing and working a Saturday on the debit side of everyone who faces God at that time. Besides, the ceremonial laws ended with Christ's sacrifice and atonement, so work on Saturday all you like!

radar said...

Jack Shepard, I don't know why you posted in my comments section, but you, sir, are a fruitbat!

cranky old fart said...

Just like a creationist to selectively quote. The full quote from Matthew:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Last I looked, they are playing round 3 of The U.S. Open today. Heaven and earth haven't passed.

Now perhaps you are saying that Jesus was referring heaven and earth passing for Him?

In any case, has ALL the OT stuff been fulfilled? Well, not if you ask the OT people, ya know, the Jews.

In fact, to a Jew, as I'm sure you know, the idea of the messiah being nailed to a cross is just laughable.

cranky old fart said...

"Besides, the ceremonial laws ended with Christ's sacrifice and atonement, so work on Saturday all you like!"

Could you give us a rundown on which laws no longer apply, and which do, because of Jesus getting himself killed? You say the "ceremonial" stuff is out, but there's a lot of "stoning" for what appears to be non-ceremonial action/thought.

(You'd think since this has to do with our eternal souls and all, God would be a little clearer.)

Anonymous said...

Cranky said: "Could you give us a rundown on which laws no longer apply, and which do, because of Jesus getting himself killed? You say the "ceremonial" stuff is out, but there's a lot of "stoning" for what appears to be non-ceremonial action/thought."

Amen to that. Radar keeps boasting about how "absolute" these laws are, but when you get into the detail of it it appears that some of it doesn't apply any more, but some of it does, and no clear line is drawn as to which is which, and what specifically is abolished where and when. Should we stone uppity teenagers at city gates and send people who accidentally cause other people's deaths to places of refuge (and it's still okay to kill them if they stray outside those places), etc.?

Or could it be that the so-called "absolutes" are as flexible as, gasp, man-made laws? Come to think of it, what exactly differentiates them from man-made laws? It's clearly not that they're "absolute".

It seems to me that if the texts commonly cited to support intolerance of homosexuals are still valid, then so are the other parts of this text - barring, of course, God specifically abolishing specific parts of this text.

"Sister-marrying was necessary since the world began with one couple, think about it!"

Which is another reason why the "Adam and Eve" and "Noah's Ark" scenarios make so little sense when interpreted as literal history.

"But with new and perfect dna bereft of mutations there was no biological reason not to marry a sister/brother."

1. Wouldn't homozygosity remain a problem just the same?

2. How would you propose such mutations were subsequently introduced into the "new and perfect" gene pool?

"So to further the population growth it was therefore best to put no limitations biologically on what man and what woman could marry."

So why was it "best" to put such biological limitations in place later on?

"There was no team of scientists among the Jews at that time who had done a study and advised God about genetics."

No, but you'd think God would know this kind of stuff anyway.

"He is the Creator and He was the one who determined that the time had come to end such marriages for the good of the population to come."

Because his "new and perfect dna" had gone off or something? Is the Creator unable to control his creation or is his creation imperfect to begin with? Or both? (Don't tell me, I already know what you're going to say: "He meant to do it that way.")

(Cranky, love the "Law" link, very nicely illustrated - I particularly like how they show the pants lying there when they show a naked person - hilarious.)

-- creeper

Mazement said...

I cannot understand how one could logically believe that one could be an "Orthodox Jew" without Temple sacrifices?

If you have questions about Judaism, why not Ask A Rabbi?

(Short answer: Temple sacrifices are on hold until the Temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt. It can't be rebuilt right now, because of the political situation.)

cranky old fart said...

I've noticed that the somewhat open ended questions/issues like the ones in this thread tend to go unanswered by radar.

It's much easier for him to "argue" the science issues, which lend themselves to cut 'n paste "answers".

Anonymous said...

Oh I don't know, Cranky - looks to me like Radar's painted himself into one heck of a corner on the "science" front as well, which is why he's avoiding all those questions and arguments too.

-- creeper

radar said...

Keep patting yourselves on the back, guys! Not sure what corners you thik I am painted into.

"(Short answer: Temple sacrifices are on hold until the Temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt. It can't be rebuilt right now, because of the political situation.)"

Better answer: Jesus predicted the Temple would be destroyed within the lifetime of His hearers in Matthew 24 because Jesus was the Lamb of God and previous sacrifices were symbolic of His Atonement. The Temple was destroyed by God. And, no, I am not anti-Jew. Jesus was a Jew, as was Paul and Peter and all the fathers of the faith. I am a Jew "of the heart" the scripture says, and that by choice.

Cranky's answer is that Jesus being nailed to the cross is laughable. I guess he and his friends have never read Psalms 22. It's only laughable if you don't know what you are talking about.

The Law was fulfilled in Christ, not destroyed. Believers are subject to the "perfect law of liberty" in following God in Spirit and in Truth. Those who reject Christ, well, go ahead and try to keep those Laws for that is your only hope...OOOPS! Too late!

Finally, creeper, your "questions" about genetics and the Jews are simply sniper fire. Of course God knew that the DNA would be corrupted over time and He knew when it was time to set down laws to avoid widespread mutations.

Abraham married his half-sister, by the way, and so did Jacob. Seth obviously married one of his sisters. The early people intermarried in this way and it was safe, as I said, since the DNA hadn't had a chance to be corrupted by mutations over time. This is pretty clear, what is so hard to understand? So what exactly is your beef? God planned for man to remain innocent and never sin. On the other hand, since He gave man the ability to have free will, that left open the possibility of sin and rebellion. So God had a plan for mankind if and when that took place.

Of course, God knew man would sin and sin would corrupt the earth, the gene pool, everything, just as energy converts to entropy. There was no need for some of the marriage restrictions in the day of Adam so there was no need for God to restrict man with a law about it until it was necessary. This isn't hard to understand unless you deliberately want to profess ignorance, which is your right...

Anonymous said...

"Keep patting yourselves on the back, guys! Not sure what corners you thik I am painted into."

The very corner that I've been pointing out to you for the past several months: that you can't square the circle between accepting ice cores and dendrochronology as valid dating methods in one instance and rejecting them in another. Your half-fast attempt to justify this by crediting a one-year flood with changing all kinds of natural laws doesn't hold up to scrutiny and is not compatible with data currently available to us, including the consistent layering according to ages – which is not compatible with the flood explanation, yet highly compatible with an old Earth/evolution explanation. (Come to think of it, that's another question you were dodging a lot last year...)


"Finally, creeper, your "questions" about genetics and the Jews are simply sniper fire."

No need for the scare quotes, they were actual, real questions, not sniper fire.

"1. [Regarding inbreeding:] Wouldn't homozygosity remain a problem just the same?"

Homozygosity is a real problem as regards inbreeding, and this "pure DNA" response you've cooked up completely fails to address it.

"2. How would you propose such mutations were subsequently introduced into the "new and perfect" gene pool?"

You've certainly come around to the genetic mutation perspective. Are "creation scientists" examining the possibility of DNA being "pure" and subsequently mutated, as well as what kind of mutation rates this requires and whether we can observe such a rate around us today? Or are you just making stuff up?

(It's a bit like that question about what mechanism could have caused the different races to mutate from Noah's offspring, and whether we can observe such "rapid evolution of races" around us today.)

Could you explain which laws believers should adhere to, if not the Law mentioned in Deuteronomy? Where are these absolute laws?

And why should non-believers subscribe to the Deuteronomy laws?

cranky old fart said...

My question was:

"Could you give us a rundown on which laws no longer apply, and which do, because of Jesus getting himself killed? You say the "ceremonial" stuff is out, but there's a lot of "stoning" for what appears to be non-ceremonial action/thought."

Unless you are saying all the laws are out since Jesus got nailed, I'm still waiting for the answer. And waiting, and waiting, and.....

Oh, as for the Jews finding a nailed messiah laughable, well, the non acceptance of your nailed messiah speaks for itself.

Interpret their scriptures as you will, they read them quite differently.

Which makes ya wonder. Shouldn't God make these things a little clearer? After all we're talking eternal damnation here!