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Wednesday, June 09, 2010

Another Darwinist bites the dust...so to speak!

Embittered evolutionist becomes rejoicing ‘creation evangelist’

The testimony of Claire S.,1 provided to CMI–NZ April 2010

Published: 8 June 2010(GMT+10)
Photo stock.xchng
Marine biology
I grew up going to and enjoying Sunday school, even attending worship sessions at the Salvation Army. I grew up knowing God was real, even if my experiential life suggested to me He did not care. As I grew I chose science subjects at school—I wanted to be a marine biologist. Once I was streamlined into separate science subjects at the age of 13 I was indoctrinated into the religion of evolution. I became an enthusiastic follower, totally convinced I had evolved from a generalised primate some indeterminate millennia ago. I swallowed everything that was thrown at me including the geography I was taught. I was hungry for more. I helped write a thesis for an oceanography/biology degree aged just 15.

However I was, by now, certain the earth was some 4.5 billion years old, sedimentary rock [layers] proved this, and that radiometric dating could not be denied showing the age of fossils to be in the millions of years without doubt. DNA showed that there was a variation on a small scale, therefore there could only be one answer of mutation combined with pure Darwinistic natural selection giving rise to new species; as per his Galápagos finch beak variation illustration.

The faithful five

I studied further and became a government marine biologist. In the science labs where I worked, shockingly there were five Christians who even had the audacity to pray at lunch times—we laughed at their foolishness. I wondered how five such intelligent men (including the unequalled genius who headed up the department) could swallow such foolishness; could they not see that evolution totally disproved the Old Testament rhetoric; therefore in equivocal logic everything else must be very questionable? Maybe Jesus’ words were allegorical stories at best—even fairy stories as well?

I was rapidly losing my faith—eventually I no longer believed in God being other than some confusing desperate answer to some things my beloved science had not answered yet. Yes, we were creatures that helped each other like no other creature on the planet did—but that was merely a superior form of a herd mentality and survival instinct, wasn’t it? (My ideation was that some deluded folk chose to call that morals—I had stopped really believing in morals except to allow society to continue as a species survival behaviour.) The Old Testament was totally irrelevant in my overblown opinion. Jesus existed for sure, but he could only have been a man. After all, why would a God become so small as to be a weak animal; and do it for things as damaged and nasty as the people I knew of?

As a result I began to lead a life where I no longer cared for others (on a personal level), or indeed myself; I joked about Darwin being wrong because we were de-evolving into some chimera of hyena (in attitude) and human (in looks). We ridiculed the scientists who still prayed to their ‘non-existent’ God and read their fairy stories. They were deluded, they had to be—please tell me they were; if I was wrong, the consequences to my life were nothing short of cataclysmic.

We ridiculed the scientists who still prayed to their ‘non-existent’ God and read their fairy stories. They were deluded, they had to be…

I trained in nursing and got more degrees as I furthered my education gaining top marks in my country. My colleagues knew me as ‘the oracle’, as I knew more than a lot of the doctors who were not consultants did. I was so proud of myself, my achievements of multiple degrees and professional diplomas, a hatful of top exam results that actually mean nothing in the scheme of things, my general knowledge that would win pub quizzes with ease, and my IQ in the 2nd percentile in the country—such puffed-up pride.

Without hope in this life

I was not proud, however, of what I was—a heartless drunk, becoming depressed, as I was without hope or reason for life other than some self-aggrandizing hedonism. I sank into deep depression, as I had a number of times before, without hope as the God I had once believed in would never help me, and no one else would either. Then one day a friend of mine, who was treating me for depression, suggested I go and tell God what was going on and ask for help. I laughed at her and told her what I thought of the ‘saddos who believed in creation and the fairy stories of the supernatural’. She gave me the (then) web address of your ministry (now creation.com). I found it and saw DVD presentations that were refuting, with easy science, what I thought I knew. This was not fairy stories, this was better science! I had to know more—I read Strobel’s book ‘The case for the Creator’ and in it I read of my hero Francis Crick and his thoughts on DNA and evolution. I read of another hero, (former atheist) Professor Antony Flew, and his astonishing u-turn to become at least a theist, and his clear denunciation of naturalistic evolution (chemicals to life) as anything other than a disproved theory rather than a religion or even a Faithful Truth.

I was shaken badly. Could all I had believed have been wrong after all? I was then given more on creationism and the mathematical likelihood of the four astonishingly coalesced nucleotides of DNA subsequently coalescing a few thousand more times in some miraculous fashion to make a DNA strand—and that then somehow all the other machinery of a living cell, a machine that can make copies of itself, arose, and this first living thing then avoided all the storms, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes and everything else and from a series of genetic accidents made a population that again continued to vary from cosmic rays and evolve, develop male and female sexual reproduction, mitosis/meiosis and more. The more I thought the more I was disturbed at what I read.

I was finally given a book by Charles Colson,2 which continued to answer my questions; or at least it put major caveats in my belief system of Science as the religion to follow.

It was the nudge to CMI teaching which opened my eyes to possibilities which allowed God to get in


My world fell apart. I knew I was wrong, I knew the five faithful marine biologists were right. I had been such a fool. This revelation allowed me to continue to go to church at least—without a true revelation of who God is, but at least I knew He was real. Then His grace healed me from my 25 years of depression and I had revelation of the reality and power of the creator God who did what science could not do—redeem me, rebuild me, love me and resurrect me. It was the nudge to CMI teaching which opened my eyes to possibilities which allowed God to get in and bring the revelation that had been robbed from me in school and university and cemented by the lies of the evolutionary religion I had had indoctrinated into me. My eyes became opened to the world around me and I saw the mathematical beauty in God’s creation as well as the genius and systematic approach He has taken—a level of genius reaching from biology, chemistry, physics, the majesty of astrophysics to the incredible detail of the subatomic existence of matter.

My shame was what I had done to countless others, I had been an evangelist for evil and I was ashamed. Now my only recourse is Jesus’ saving grace, however I can also tell the truth as well. I am now a missionary and evangelist, God has brought me to other parts of the world and allowed me to serve in His love and mercy. I have now gained opportunities to speak the truth of His glorious creation now my eyes are open. Continually I am stunned that I was so blind—but now I see. Praise God for His mercy upon a sinner like me.

~~~~

I now have my certifications on VMware so will begin blogging again but first this testimony was so cool I had to post it.   Meanwhile, the Darwinist censors are still at it...tying to burn David Coppedge's career at the stake!


Lawsuit: Specialist for NASA Mission Demoted for Sharing Intelligent Design Views

LOS ANGELES, June 8, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) —

An amended complaint was filed Monday in a lawsuit against Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) on behalf of an employee who claims he was demoted, silenced, harassed, and threatened with termination for discussing his beliefs about intelligent design with co-workers.  The California Institute of Technology operates JPL under a contract with NASA.

In March 2009, David Coppedge - who served as a high-level "team lead" technical specialist on JPL’s Cassini mission to Saturn since 2000 – was allegedly punished on the basis of "pushing [his] religion."
According to the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), the public interest law firm that is handling the case, Coppedge’s supervisor, Gregory Chin, told him that co-workers had complained he was pushing his "religious" views by discussing intelligent design and offering them DVDs. Coppedge says he never held any discussions with anyone unwilling to talk to him.  Chin then allegedly said Coppedge would lose his job if he kept "pushing [his] religion," ordered him not to discuss politics or religion with anyone in his office, and asserted that "intelligent design is religion." 

According to Coppedge, he told Chin that he would comply but that he felt his constitutional rights were being violated.

The next month, officials at JPL gave Coppedge a written warning for his "unwelcome," "harassing," and "disruptive" activities.  The warning ordered him to refrain from such behavior or face further disciplinary action, including termination.  Coppedge’s requests for specific details regarding the allegations were denied.  A few days later, JPL demoted Coppedge.

From April through August 2009, Coppedge says he was given the runaround when attempting to use an "internal appeal process" to challenge the action taken against him.  In April 2010, about a year after JPL was placed on notice of a potential lawsuit and a Fair Employment and Housing Act claim, Coppedge was told that the written warning would be removed from his personnel file, but that he would not be restored to his team lead position, that offering DVDs on ID was inappropriate, and that he could not discuss ID with co-workers.
"Employees shouldn’t be threatened with termination and punished for sharing their opinion with willing co-workers just because the view being shared doesn’t fit what’s politically correct," said ADF Senior Counsel Joseph Infranco.  "Mr. Coppedge has always maintained that ID is a scientific theory.  Regardless, JPL has discriminated against him on the basis of what they deem is ‘religion.’  The only discussion allowed is what fits the agenda. Stray, and you are silenced and punished. It just doesn’t fit with JPL’s otherwise fine reputation in the industry."

A spokesperson for JPL told LifeSiteNews.com that JPL has not yet received the lawsuit, and therefore does not yet have a statement to make about the case.

36 comments:

Jon Woolf said...

The testimony of Claire S.

Another distraught, depressed, vulnerable person corrupted by con artists who do evil in the name of the God of Light. How sad.

Re: the Coppedge lawsuit

"It is a cardinal error to theorize before you have all the facts." -- Sherlock Holmes

This gentleman seems to be watching this case carefully. As he says, with only the complaint and no response by the defendants, there are no reliable facts with which to theorize.

highboy said...

"Another distraught, depressed, vulnerable person corrupted by con artists who do evil in the name of the God of Light. How sad."

Who? What evil are you refering to?

Anonymous said...

"I had been an evangelist for evil and I was ashamed."

What evil is she talking about?

Hawkeye® said...

Jon Woolf,
So then, when a "distraught, depressed, vulnerable" person finds peace, happiness and contentment... you believe that is a "sad" thing? I don't think you truly understand the meaning of the term "sad" my friend.

highboy said...

Radar's been out celebrating all night. He won't be responding for a while.

Jon Woolf said...

highboy: What evil are you refering to?

"A lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies." -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Hawkeye: So then, when a "distraught, depressed, vulnerable" person finds peace, happiness and contentment... you believe that is a "sad" thing?

When the peace and happiness is based on believing a lie, what will happen when she discovers the lie? Nothing good, I'm quite sure of that.

Anonymous said...

And as usual, faith and the need for comfort precede acceptance of creationism.

highboy said...

"A lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies." -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson"

I don't follow Jon. You talking YEC or just faith in God altogether?

"And as usual, faith and the need for comfort precede acceptance of creationism."

Not even remotely true, but I guess I can't argue with your anonymous Jedi mind powers that can read people's minds, hearts, and motives over an internet blog.

Jon Woolf said...

I don't follow Jon. You talking YEC or just faith in God altogether?

YEC.

Anon: "And as usual, faith and the need for comfort precede acceptance of creationism."

Highboy: Not even remotely true,

The race isn't always to the swiftest nor the battle to the strongest ... but that's the way to bet. Likewise with conversions to creationism. I don't think I've ever heard of a case where a person accepted creationism first and then became a Christian (or a Muslim, or whatever). The religious conversion always comes first, whether they admit it or not.

highboy said...

"I don't think I've ever heard of a case where a person accepted creationism first and then became a Christian (or a Muslim, or whatever). The religious conversion always comes first, whether they admit it or not."

What are you basing that wild assumption on? Whether or not you agree with YEC, I can think of dozens of stories of people who didn't believe in God until faced with YEC.

Anonymous said...

"Whether or not you agree with YEC, I can think of dozens of stories of people who didn't believe in God until faced with YEC."

Okay, please link to a dozen of them.

highboy said...

"Okay, please link to a dozen of them."

Just as soon as you demonstrate those Jedi mind powers.

creeper said...

What's the story, Highboy? You claimed you "can think of dozens of stories of people who didn't believe in God until faced with YEC."

The least you can do is give us one or two dozen. Can't think of any? Alternatively, you could just admit that you made that up.

And for a fun example of what happens when a creationist runs into real-world evidence, there's always Glenn Morton's story.

-- creeper

Chaos Engineer said...

I would also like to see some links, but a dozen is too many for me to read. Five or six is plenty.

I'm not a Jedi but I do have some hoax-spotting skills and the testimony of "Claire S" is an obvious hoax. If you know what to look for, it's easy to tell the difference between a person who was once a sincere atheist, and a believer who's just trying to guess at what an atheist might think.

Here's an example in reverse that you can use for practice: "I was once a devout Christian. I read the Bible every day and had it memorized. One day somebody said to me, 'If the Ark of the Covenant was only two cubits long, then how did Noah fit all of those animals into it?' I did more research than I'd ever done in my life, but couldn't come up with an answer. I immediately realized that my religion was wrong and so was everyone else's."

The "Claire S" hoax isn't quite as blatant as that, but all the signs are there if you know what to look for.

highboy said...

Sorry folks I didn't realise every Christian I ever met automatically had their story registered onto the internet for all the assumption swallowing atheists to view and critque. But while I'm trying to figure that one out, maybe someone can substantiate the claim that the story radar posted here is a hoax, or the wild and sweeping generalisation that people don't become creationists first, Christians second.

Chaos Engineer said...

It's incovceivable that a person with a scientific mindset would be instantly persuaded by some Creationist website. Any true atheist would have done a little more research and found the rebuttals for all those arguments.

Now, things could have happened in a different order. She could have come to Christianity as a cure for her bitterness and alcoholism. And she could have been taught that she needed to believe in a young earth in order to be a Christian. In that case, she might have just looked at the web site and said, "OK, I already know this is true, so I'm not going to waste my time looking for rebuttals."

(And in that case it's just bad luck that she got evangelized by Young-Earthers. If she'd been evangelized by a more liberal sect, then she'd still be cured of bitterness and alcoholism, but she could also still do science. Also they might have encouraged her to go back to school and her MD degree.)

highboy said...

Chaos your last remark is so full of generalisation and just baseless opinion its hard to take seriously.

radar said...

Chaos thinks that Claire is a hoax? I bet you never heard of Flew, either, right?

As to Woolf, you fail to see the rich irony of the quote, "It is a cardinal error to theorize before you have all the facts." -- Sherlock Holmes

I hereby declare we should simple rename Darwinism and begin calling it Cardinal Error! Perhaps someone will mistake it for a species of bird and others may mistake it for a representative of the Catholic Church but if by some means we could remove it from the world of science we would have done a great and lasting good!

Anonymous said...

Wow, a quote by a fictional character. Now THAT's impressive!

Jon Woolf said...

[shrug] Radar quotes the Bible, I quote Holmes. What's the problem?

highboy said...

"Wow, a quote by a fictional character. Now THAT's impressive!"

It was Jon who originally quoted it slick, not radar, so I assume then you're mocking Jon, not radar? What is even more impressive is your lack of productive input on literally every thread you've posted on.

Chaos Engineer said...

I've heard of Andrew Flew. He was a former atheist who converted to Deism. After his conversion, he continued to reject Young-Earth Creationism (and Christianity in general).

That's a good example of a plausible conversion story; Deism isn't incompatible with science and there are a lot of scientists (especially physicists) who have Deistic beliefs.

What does that have to do with the "Claire S." story?

creeper said...

Highboy, you're still here?

I see you still can't come up with a dozen or so stories of people who didn't believe in God until faced with YEC.

How about admitting you just made that up?

-- creeper

creeper said...

Okay, so Highboy's story here about people who didn't believe in God until faced with YEC appears to be fictitious.

YEC from a scientific standpoint is the weakest form of creationism, and it would take a highly unlikely confluence of psychological factors for someone who didn't already believe in God to fall for all the fallacies that YEC entails and only then started believing in God.

As Chaos Engineer correctly pointed out, a move to Deism is somewhat plausible without having to subscribe to all kinds of pseudo-science, but YEC is simply riddled with fallacies and denials of well-established science in a great number of fields (biology, geology, plate tectonics, radiometric dating). Anyone who is going to go through all of those denials has to have a prior agenda or interest in achieving the outcome of that - the belief in the literal truth of certain parts of the Bible.

So I call nonsense on your claim, but as usual you are of course free to shore up your claim. So far your silence is very telling.

-- creeper

Anonymous said...

Talk about the contradictions in the Bible and he's here in a flash, but ask him to back up his complete and utter BS, and it's nothing but crickets.

Come on Timmay, you call Chaos on throwing up "baseless opinion" yet you can't back up your very own claims? Looks like you may be following the lead of that hypocrite you call "God" again hey? Do as I say not as I do. Classic.

Although, I guess when faced with a "put up or shut up" challenge, you simply chose to shut that big yap of yours. Probably a wise decision in the end. You wouldn't want to further embarrass yourself.

- Canucklehead.

highboy said...

"I see you still can't come up with a dozen or so stories of people who didn't believe in God until faced with YEC.

How about admitting you just made that up?"

Because I didn't make it up. I know literally hundreds of Christians and can't count how many attribute YEC to their conversion. Just because this can't be verified over the internet doesn't make it true. Prove to me over the internet how many people you know who like the color blue. Of course you're free to continue to assume (keyword: assume) that its nonsense but I call bullshit on you and Chaos' wild and sweeping claim that the latter can't come before the former, so you're not exactly in any less of a corner. I fail to see what point you're making, since you're about as capable of backing up your ridiculous assertion as I am of pointing out everyone I've ever met who have been converted based on yec science.

anonymous: interesting how you've not made one attempt at proving one single argument since you started trolling this blog, or even attempted to disprove a point since trolling this blog. Get a sack and make an argument of your own before criticising others if you want to be taken seriously. Simply writing a few mocking posts and disappearing in sporadic fashion isn't making you look intelligent.

highboy said...

Oh look, canucklehead's posting again. Care to say anything worthwhile this time or just going to keep waving your pom poms canuck?

Anonymous said...

Highboy,

So we've moved up to countless masses now. Still sounds like you just made it up - actually even more so now.

"Just because this can't be verified over the internet doesn't make it true."

Perhaps you meant to say that just because you said it doesn't make it true, right?

Think carefully about your claim: are you really saying that

(1) these people were atheists,

(2) they then looked at the scientific evidence (such as it is) for a young Earth, thought it was not only plausible but more likely, and

(3) only then started believing in God?

Is that what you're claiming?

-- creeper

Anonymous said...

"I call bullshit on you and Chaos' wild and sweeping claim that the latter can't come before the former, so you're not exactly in any less of a corner."

Actually, no. We can't prove the absence of such people, but you claim the opposite, and you're in a position to prove the existence of such people, so the onus is on you.

-- creeper

highboy said...

yes creeper, that is what I'm claiming. The fact that this idea is beyond your comprehension matters little to me. As for onus, yes, you and Chaos explicitly stated that its just "inconceivable", one of the most ridiculous claims I've seen you make. You are claiming that out of the literally hundreds of people I've met in Bible college, the churches, prayer meetings, Biblestudies, accountability meetings, student ministries, all in regions spanning two different countries, that its "inconceivable" that any of them were not Christian, looked at YEC, and then became Christian. Sorry, but you're full of shit, and lots of it. Since I can't physically produce their identities over the internet you're free of course to believe what you will, which matters little to me. It doesn't make your claim any less ludicrous.

Chaos Engineer said...

Highboy, all I can say is that your experience is different from mine. (Unless you're trolling, in which case never mind.)

My experience is that non-believers convert to Christianity either because they like the people they meet in the Christian community, or because they're drawn to the spiritual aspects of Christianity (The promise of redemption, the sense of a greater purpose to the universe, the hope for triumph over death).

It seems kind of weird to think of people converting to Christianity just because they like the Biology textbooks that come with it. Most people aren't all that interested in Biology, and also it seems like the secular world has plenty of Biology texts that are just as persuasive and well-written as anything you'd find in a Christian bookstore.

Anyway, about your fellow Biology scholars: Of the ones that started to believe in Young-Earth Creationism, how many converted to Christianity later on? Did any of them convert to Judaism or Islam instead? And how many stayed non-believers, adopting the secular theory that Earth was terraformed and colonized 6,000 years ago by humans from another planet?

I'd assume that most of them would find it easiest to take the secular option. But I move in different social circles from you, so it's hard for me to say for sure.

Anonymous said...

"yes creeper, that is what I'm claiming."

Okay then.

"The fact that this idea is beyond your comprehension matters little to me."

It's not beyond my comprehension, and I can't say I'm concerned in any way that this fact that isn't a fact matters little to you.

"As for onus, yes, you and Chaos explicitly stated that its just "inconceivable", one of the most ridiculous claims I've seen you make."

Perhaps that's because I didn't make it. Why would you make up an explicit claim that one can so easily see is not true?

But as for onus, we can't prove the non-existence of such people (it's theoretically not possible), but you can (in theory) prove the existence of such people, and since you claim that there are dozens/countless masses of them, the onus remains on you, pure and simple. Simply swearing at us instead does precious little to bolster your case. Actually, it reads more like a surrender.

"You are claiming that out of the literally hundreds of people I've met in Bible college, the churches, prayer meetings, Biblestudies, accountability meetings, student ministries, all in regions spanning two different countries, that its "inconceivable" that any of them were not Christian, looked at YEC, and then became Christian."

Er, no, not "not Christian", but atheist. That's what we just established above, right?

"Sorry, but you're full of shit, and lots of it."

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

"Since I can't physically produce their identities over the internet you're free of course to believe what you will, which matters little to me."

You're free to walk off in a huff, claiming to be no longer interested in the discussion, but yes, now I certainly will believe that you made that up. I can't speak for Chaos Engineer, but I suspect he would share that opinion.

"It doesn't make your claim any less ludicrous. "

You mean my claim that it's unlikely, due to YEC resting on so many fallacies? What's so ludicrous about it?

Your inability to come up with any examples of people who converted to YEC on the strength of its science instead of due to a faith-based reason is duly noted. And you can imagine my shock that you didn't. I'm just stunned.

-- creeper

highboy said...

creeper, you can claim that I've "surrendered" till your blue and the face, that doesn't make it true. Believe what you want. But you're claim is still garbage, and yes you did make it, or at least openly agreed with it. I guess you do have those Jedi mind powers that can deduce what reasons someone could/couldn't have for converting to Christianity. Good for you.

highboy said...

"Highboy, all I can say is that your experience is different from mine. (Unless you're trolling, in which case never mind.)

My experience is that non-believers convert to Christianity either because they like the people they meet in the Christian community, or because they're drawn to the spiritual aspects of Christianity (The promise of redemption, the sense of a greater purpose to the universe, the hope for triumph over death)."

Well first of all, those are all examples of reasons for conversion as well, and good ones. But to suggest that its "inconceivable" that an atheist would look at YEC and see an evidence for God is again, ludicrous. You talk as if YEC is so far off the grid it can't be seen, and that's just not the case. In MY experience, YEC is one of the biggest booms among young people today. College was the biggest example. Teenagers coming out of high school with their rebel complex have found in YEC their perfect cause. Christianity as a whole has become a very marketable new "counter culture" toward young people and the idea of challenging the status quo and the "institution" is not exactly a new idea among young people. Kent Hovind (who by the way creeper, if you watched any of his lectures, his testimony clearly states he was an atheist before being confronted with YEC) Ken Ham and a lot of other YEC types are becoming more and more popular among young teenage converts. Kent Hovind is actually even more popular now that he's been imprisoned, seen almost like a political prisoner among these kids. (though tax fraud is hardly admirable in my book)

"Anyway, about your fellow Biology scholars: Of the ones that started to believe in Young-Earth Creationism, how many converted to Christianity later on? Did any of them convert to Judaism or Islam instead? And how many stayed non-believers, adopting the secular theory that Earth was terraformed and colonized 6,000 years ago by humans from another planet?"

"Fellow biology scholars?" Who are you talking to? Biology is so far above my head I couldn't reach it with a magic carpet. As for people I've met, they just simply were non-believers. We had an assignment in my Church Mobilization Class at Bethany Bible College, where prof had us all take a book out of his library, read it, and do a lecture on how it could be used to evangelise and why, or if we thought it couldn't be used, how or why. After each lecture, the class was aloud to respond. The book handed to me was a book by Ken Ham, Creation Evangelism For the New Millenium. My report deemed it ill suited for evangelism, reason being because the science was so controversial. I thought that winning people to Christ should be done on more concrete foundational doctrine, not something that the Church itself bickers about back and forth almost like we do here. But the class, dominantly, reacted pretty adamantly that I was wrong, and that YEC helped many of them convert to Christ, that OEC is a hoax, blah blah blah. I was even asked why, if YEC was true, why it couldn't be used to evangelise. My answer: "Is it true?" That's when the fun started.

Anonymous said...

"But you're claim is still garbage, and yes you did make it, or at least openly agreed with it."

Mr. "likes-to-lecture-others-about-reading-comprehension", it's not that hard to read the comments above to find out what I did and didn't say. Inconceivable goes a little too far for my tastes. Here's what I actually said:

"YEC from a scientific standpoint is the weakest form of creationism, and it would take a highly unlikely confluence of psychological factors for someone who didn't already believe in God to fall for all the fallacies that YEC entails and only then started believing in God."

Sorry, but along with the swearing you really haven't made a very persuasive case otherwise so far, but that's okay - we can agree to disagree.

"You talk as if YEC is so far off the grid it can't be seen, and that's just not the case."

Scientifically, a young Earth scenario is actually "so far off the grid it can't be seen". The existence of God is something we can puzzle over and discuss, and I think in many cases we can simply and respectfully agree to disagree on that.

But to conclude that the Earth and the Universe is no older than 6,000 (or for some, 10,000) years old requires such a massive dismissal of all kinds of different scientific fields that it truly is off the grid. Which is why I find it so unlikely that anyone is persuaded by the science without believing in God first.

"In MY experience, YEC is one of the biggest booms among young people today. College was the biggest example. Teenagers coming out of high school with their rebel complex have found in YEC their perfect cause. Christianity as a whole has become a very marketable new "counter culture" toward young people and the idea of challenging the status quo and the "institution" is not exactly a new idea among young people."

I'll keep in mind that you went to college in a seminary, where it wouldn't be surprising to find more YEC adherents than in other colleges and universities. My college days are almost two decades behind me now, and at that time any religious groups were certainly a small minority. Visible, but a fringe. (This was one of the major state universities.) I certainly hope that college students today are smarter than flocking toward something as inane as YEC, but I'll grant you that college students do some pretty wacky things.

"Kent Hovind (who by the way creeper, if you watched any of his lectures, his testimony clearly states he was an atheist before being confronted with YEC) Ken Ham and a lot of other YEC types are becoming more and more popular among young teenage converts. Kent Hovind is actually even more popular now that he's been imprisoned, seen almost like a political prisoner among these kids. (though tax fraud is hardly admirable in my book)"

Yep, can't see what's so admirable about that either. Surely "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" should mean something to those Christians. "Political prisoner," wow.

Thank you for the interesting anecdote about the bible college crowd and how they felt about YEC. I still suspect that they were believers first, and then found YEC to be "scientific" support for their faith, much like Radar. Thus making it easier to align faith and science in their worldview. Which is a pity, because YEC isn't necessary to be a Christian, and majorities in many faiths find the theory of evolution compatible with their religious beliefs.

But when you look at it that way, it's a bit like a strange creationist counterpart to the old "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist".

-- creeper

highboy said...

"But to conclude that the Earth and the Universe is no older than 6,000 (or for some, 10,000) years old requires such a massive dismissal of all kinds of different scientific fields that it truly is off the grid. Which is why I find it so unlikely that anyone is persuaded by the science without believing in God first."

That's not what I meant by "off the grid". I'm talking about popularity. I've never fully ascribed to YEC and when it comes to the debate between YEC and OEC I don't have the balls to plant my flag to either side. But YEC is a lot more popular than you give it credit for. That's what I meant.

"I'll keep in mind that you went to college in a seminary, where it wouldn't be surprising to find more YEC adherents than in other colleges and universities. My college days are almost two decades behind me now, and at that time any religious groups were certainly a small minority. Visible, but a fringe. (This was one of the major state universities.) I certainly hope that college students today are smarter than flocking toward something as inane as YEC, but I'll grant you that college students do some pretty wacky things."

That's my point. Christian college was no different. We even have professors, (Professor Clinton Branscombe was/is the leading OT expert for example) who even cautioned the youth about taking extreme stances as it pertains to evolution, and its it was Professor Branscombe who first opened my eyes to the idea that OEC and Christianity weren't incompatible. Before that, Hovid had me hook, line, and sinker. You can suspect that these kids were Christians first, but to that I simply say this: you haven't met them. We're also not talking about one focus group of kids. Thanks to BBC I have close friends from here to Canada, Barbatos, Jamaca, Ukraine, China, Haiti, Thailand, Germany, and more. Science isn't taught the same way in those countries as it is here, believe it or not.

"Yep, can't see what's so admirable about that either. Surely "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" should mean something to those Christians. "Political prisoner," wow."

No one actually used those words, but you know what I mean. There is even a "Free Kent Hovind" website somewhere. The rationale he and his wife used to avoid taxes is just despicable. No offense to others who ascribe to YEC but the guy is a quack.