I wanna know if Acambaro the dinosaur tonight, Dad?
Earlier I presented a few historical references to dinosaur's interaction with mankind, all from the region around Scandinavia and the British Isles. Skeptics like to scoff at the reports, but then there are hundreds of reports and scattered all about the region. It is hard to imagine a conspiracy of our ancestors in which they would try to fool us into believing in dinosaurs. It is also hard to imagine how they would often draw anatomically correct (by modern standards) representations of dinosaurs along with their writings or in the works of ancient artists.
As it happens, I could make a dozen posts on the subject. In South America, North America, Asia, Europe, Australia, Africa....in every kind of culture and on every inhabited continent there are records and artistic representations of dinosaurs. In some cases, there are natives who claim that there are still living dinosaurs to be found. "Mokele-Mbembe" was still claimed to be living in the 1980's, for instance. 'Nessie' was faked, no doubt, and no one has presented a living dinosaur or a fresh dinosaur corpse in recent days. Perhaps they really are all gone? (Although Coelacanth was thought to be extinct for eighty million years until one was caught in 1938. The Gladiator Fly was supposed to have been gone much longer still, until they were found on a mountaintop in Namibia in 2002.)
But I digress. The tales of the Thunderbird in virtually every American Indian tribe echo the sightings of flying reptiles in Europe. The dragons of China and England are also depicted on walls in South America. In fact, pictorial representations of dinosaurs done 500, 1,000, 1,500 years ago and before have been documented all over the globe. You have to wonder why the Chinese calendar would include eleven extant animals....and a dragon. But if the dragon was once living amongst the Chinese, then it is understandable.
The occasional fake (The Ica stones, for instance) will show up. But for every Ica stone, there are probably 3 Acambaro figurines that have withstood various tests as genuine ancient artifacts.
Acambaro
The finds in this small Mexican town are among the most astounding ever. Although the first figurines were found in 1945, many of the figurines were prophetic in nature in that:
1) They displayed dinosaurs not yet found and identified by paleontologists but now known to have existed.
2) They displayed features such as dermal spines, not known to be found on such dinosaurs at that time, but now (as of 1992) understood to be a feature of many dinosaurs once pictured as smooth-backed.
Dating methods in general are not totally reliable, but within 4,000 years or so have been proven to be worthwhile for demonstrating an age range for an object. The Acambaro figurines consistently test out as 1,500-4,500 years old when tested by impartial testing agents, although they often withdraw their findings when they realize the implications of the results.
The Mystery of Acambaro
"In 1945 Waldemar Julsrud, a German immigrant and knowledgeable archeologist, discovered clay figurines buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Guanajuato, Mexico. Eventually over 33,000 ceramic figurines were found near El Toro as well as Chivo Mountain on the other side of town. Similar artifacts found in the area are identified with the Pre-classical Chupicuaro Culture (800 BC to 200 AD).
The authenticity of Julsrud find was challenged because the huge collection included dinosaurs. Many archeologists believe dinosaurs have been extinct for the past 65 million years and man knowledge of them has been limited to the past 200 years. If this is true, man could not possibly have seen and modeled them 2,500 years ago.
During the years 1945 to 1946,Carlos Perea was Director of Archeology, Acambaro zone, for the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. In a recorded interview he described Julsrud excavations as unauthorized, as were many similar discoveries made by local farmers, but he had no doubt that the finds were authentic. He acknowledged that he examined the figurines, including dinosaurs, from many different sites. He was present when official excavations were conducted by the National Museum and the American Museum of Natural History. They found many figurines, including dinosaurs, which he described in detail.
In 1954 the Mexican government sent four well known archeologists to investigate. A different but nearby site was selected and a meticulous excavation was begun. Six feet down they found numerous examples of similar figurines and concluded that Julsrud find was authentic. However, three weeks later their report declared the collection to be a fraud because of the fantastic representation of man and dinosaur together.
In 1955 Charles Hapgood, respected1 Professor of Anthropology at the University of New Hampshire, conducted an elaborate investigation including extensive radiometric dating. He was accompanied by Earl Stanley Gardner, former District Attorney of the city of Los Angeles, California and the creator of Perry Mason. They falsified the claim that Julsrud manufactured the figurines, by excavating under the house of the Chief of Police, which was built 25 years before the Julsrud arrived in Mexico. Forty three more examples of the same type were found. Three radiocarbon tests were performed by Isotopes Incorporated of New Jersey resulting in dates of 1640 BC, 4530 BC and 1110 BC. Eighteen samples were subjected to thermoluminescent testing by the University of Pennsylvania, all of which gave dates of approximately 2500 BC. These results were subsequently withdrawn when it was learned that some of the samples were from dinosaurs.
In 1990 an investigation was conducted by Neal Steedy, an independent archeologist who's livelihood depends on contract work from the Mexican government. He arbitrarily selected an excavation site considerably removed from the Julsrud site. Chards were found but no figurines. He commissioned radiocarbon tests for samples from the Julsrud Collection which produced a range of dates from 4000 to 1500 years ago. Then he decided to ignore the results because he claimed the figurines were too soft to last more than 20 years in the ground. He also ignored the fact that many of the acknowledged Chupicuaro pieces are of the same consistency and they survived just fine. Of course, some pieces in the Julsrud collection are beautifully fired. Steedy's effort does more to support Julsrud collection than to refute it. He effectively demonstrates the determination of the establishment to defend evolutionary dogma in the face of the devastating implications of this truly significant find."
A bit of detail on testing and investigation
"Hapgood excavated a number of sites that were on previously undisturbed ground and found many pieces of ceramic figurines of the "Julsrud" type. To eliminate any possibility of fraud that Tinajero or anyone else had manufactured the ceramics, Hapgood decided to excavate beneath a house that had been built in 1930, long before any artifacts were found on El Toro Hill. They found a house directly over the site owned by the chief of police, asked permission to dig beneath the floor of his house. Permission was granted, and they dug a six-foot deep pit beneath the hard concrete floor of the living room, unearthing dozens of the controversial objects. Since the house had been built twenty five years before Julsrud arrived in Mexico, it exonerated Julsrud, eliminated the hoax theory and negated Dipeso's as well as Noquera's reports at all the important points.
In 1968 Charles Hapgood returned to Acambaro accompanied by Earle Stanley Gardner of Perry Mason fame. Mr. Gardner was not only trained in criminology but was also an investigator of archaeological problems. He was supremely impressed with the vastness and the variety of the collection. It was quite clear that Mr. Gardner considered the fake theory completely false, outrageous and deceptive!
The radiocarbon 14 method of dating was still in its infancy, but Hapgood acquired specimens for C14 testing.6 Gardner and Andrew Young (inventor of the Bell Helicopter) financed the testing.
Hapgood submitted the samples to the Laboratory of Isotopes Inc. in New Jersey. The results were as follows:
Sample No. 1
(I-3842) 3590 + - 100 (C.1640 BC)
Sample No. 2
(I-4015) 6480 + - 170 (C. 4530 BC)
Sample No. 3
(I-4031)3060 + - 120 (C. 1110 BC)
The radiocarbon dates of up to 4,500 B.C for Carbon on the ceramics would make the collection the oldest in the Western Hemisphere.
In 1972, Arthur Young submitted two of the figurines to Dr. Froelich Rainey, the director of the Pennsylvania Museum for Thermoluminescent Dating. The Masca lab had obtained thermoluminescent dates of up to 2,700 B.C. In a letter dated September 13, 1972, addressed to Mr. Young, Dr Rainey said:
"...Now after we have had years of experimentation both here and at the lab at Oxford, we have no doubt about the dependability of the thermoluminescent method. We may have errors of up to 5-10% in absolute dating, but we are no longer concerned about unexpected bugs that might put the whole system in doubt. I should also point out, that we were so concerned about the extraordinarily ancient dates of these figures, that Mark Han in our lab made an average of 18 runs on each one of the four samples. Hence, there is a very substantial bit of research in these particular pieces... All in all the lab stands on these dates for the Julsrud material, whatever that means in terms of archeological dating in Mexico, or in terms of 'fakes verse's authentic' pieces."
But when the lab at the University of Pennsylvania found out that dinosaurs were part of the collection, they retracted their thermoluminescent. They asserted that the ceramics gave off regenerated light signals and could be no more than 30 years old.
A thermoluminescent technician admitted that no other ceramics existed, in his experience, that produced regenerated light signals, and no other thermoluminescent dating of ceramics had ever been done by utilization of a regenerated light signal. In short, the testing was a hocus pocus, laboratory trick to avoid the obvious conclusion that dinosaurs and man lived together."
Even skeptics admit that the Acambaro collection is a powerful case for coexistence of dinosaur and man. But part of the story of Acambaro is the laboratory results that consistently reveal ages of more than 2,000 years for these figurines...until the technicians realize the implications of the findings and then fall over themselves trying to reverse their fields.
Subterfuge and lies have been part of the creation versus macroevolution argument. The Ica stones appear to be a hoax, recent works passed off as ancient. There are doubts about some human prints found in stone such as the "Meister print" and the "Zapata track". The Paluxy River area is a rich source of possible dinosaur-with-man prints even though tourists in the first part of the 20th century made away with some of the tracks. One of the best human tracks was destroyed in 1992, according to the bible.ca site. But Glen Kuban of Talkorigins denies strongly that he was involved and hints that no vandalism took place (I believe he is telling the truth that he did not go to the site and damage anything, although his rebuttal includes some incorrect information). Now I personally view Kuban's site, just as I view Dr.Dino's site, as propagandists willing to stretch the truth or at least unwilling to include all the truth when they make their posts. You won't see me blogrolling Dr. Dino and you won't see me pay any attention when a macroevolutionist links to talkorigins, either. I also freely admit that sometimes a site like bible.ca misses the boat as well. It is a subject that transcends science and segues into the worldview where often facts get twisted like pretzels to make them fit.
In the case of Acambaro, however, no reasonable macroevolutionist has come up with an honest rebuttal or explanation as to how ancient peoples could have molded dinosaur statues with more accuracy than the scientists of the time they were discovered. No reasonable explanation has been given by macroevolutionists for the hundreds of drawings, carvings and figurines of dinosaurs done by people long before paleontologists began finding dinosaur fossils and providing representations of what their appearance might have been. No good explanation has been given for the multitudes of stories about dinosaurs, not just as stories but as historical narratives in records kept by government and other officials.
For Bible-believers, attempts to characterize Leviathan and Behemoth as a crocodile and hippopatumus, respectively, have received the scorn they deserve. Even the Bible records dinosaurs, often with the word being translated as dragon. The record of human history, both written and described graphically as paintings, drawings, carvings and figurines, is that of co-existence with dinosaurs for many hundreds of years.
(PS- No, I did not have to go on a long trip, hurray!)
As it happens, I could make a dozen posts on the subject. In South America, North America, Asia, Europe, Australia, Africa....in every kind of culture and on every inhabited continent there are records and artistic representations of dinosaurs. In some cases, there are natives who claim that there are still living dinosaurs to be found. "Mokele-Mbembe" was still claimed to be living in the 1980's, for instance. 'Nessie' was faked, no doubt, and no one has presented a living dinosaur or a fresh dinosaur corpse in recent days. Perhaps they really are all gone? (Although Coelacanth was thought to be extinct for eighty million years until one was caught in 1938. The Gladiator Fly was supposed to have been gone much longer still, until they were found on a mountaintop in Namibia in 2002.)
But I digress. The tales of the Thunderbird in virtually every American Indian tribe echo the sightings of flying reptiles in Europe. The dragons of China and England are also depicted on walls in South America. In fact, pictorial representations of dinosaurs done 500, 1,000, 1,500 years ago and before have been documented all over the globe. You have to wonder why the Chinese calendar would include eleven extant animals....and a dragon. But if the dragon was once living amongst the Chinese, then it is understandable.
The occasional fake (The Ica stones, for instance) will show up. But for every Ica stone, there are probably 3 Acambaro figurines that have withstood various tests as genuine ancient artifacts.
Acambaro
The finds in this small Mexican town are among the most astounding ever. Although the first figurines were found in 1945, many of the figurines were prophetic in nature in that:
1) They displayed dinosaurs not yet found and identified by paleontologists but now known to have existed.
2) They displayed features such as dermal spines, not known to be found on such dinosaurs at that time, but now (as of 1992) understood to be a feature of many dinosaurs once pictured as smooth-backed.
Dating methods in general are not totally reliable, but within 4,000 years or so have been proven to be worthwhile for demonstrating an age range for an object. The Acambaro figurines consistently test out as 1,500-4,500 years old when tested by impartial testing agents, although they often withdraw their findings when they realize the implications of the results.
The Mystery of Acambaro
"In 1945 Waldemar Julsrud, a German immigrant and knowledgeable archeologist, discovered clay figurines buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Guanajuato, Mexico. Eventually over 33,000 ceramic figurines were found near El Toro as well as Chivo Mountain on the other side of town. Similar artifacts found in the area are identified with the Pre-classical Chupicuaro Culture (800 BC to 200 AD).
The authenticity of Julsrud find was challenged because the huge collection included dinosaurs. Many archeologists believe dinosaurs have been extinct for the past 65 million years and man knowledge of them has been limited to the past 200 years. If this is true, man could not possibly have seen and modeled them 2,500 years ago.
During the years 1945 to 1946,Carlos Perea was Director of Archeology, Acambaro zone, for the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. In a recorded interview he described Julsrud excavations as unauthorized, as were many similar discoveries made by local farmers, but he had no doubt that the finds were authentic. He acknowledged that he examined the figurines, including dinosaurs, from many different sites. He was present when official excavations were conducted by the National Museum and the American Museum of Natural History. They found many figurines, including dinosaurs, which he described in detail.
In 1954 the Mexican government sent four well known archeologists to investigate. A different but nearby site was selected and a meticulous excavation was begun. Six feet down they found numerous examples of similar figurines and concluded that Julsrud find was authentic. However, three weeks later their report declared the collection to be a fraud because of the fantastic representation of man and dinosaur together.
In 1955 Charles Hapgood, respected1 Professor of Anthropology at the University of New Hampshire, conducted an elaborate investigation including extensive radiometric dating. He was accompanied by Earl Stanley Gardner, former District Attorney of the city of Los Angeles, California and the creator of Perry Mason. They falsified the claim that Julsrud manufactured the figurines, by excavating under the house of the Chief of Police, which was built 25 years before the Julsrud arrived in Mexico. Forty three more examples of the same type were found. Three radiocarbon tests were performed by Isotopes Incorporated of New Jersey resulting in dates of 1640 BC, 4530 BC and 1110 BC. Eighteen samples were subjected to thermoluminescent testing by the University of Pennsylvania, all of which gave dates of approximately 2500 BC. These results were subsequently withdrawn when it was learned that some of the samples were from dinosaurs.
In 1990 an investigation was conducted by Neal Steedy, an independent archeologist who's livelihood depends on contract work from the Mexican government. He arbitrarily selected an excavation site considerably removed from the Julsrud site. Chards were found but no figurines. He commissioned radiocarbon tests for samples from the Julsrud Collection which produced a range of dates from 4000 to 1500 years ago. Then he decided to ignore the results because he claimed the figurines were too soft to last more than 20 years in the ground. He also ignored the fact that many of the acknowledged Chupicuaro pieces are of the same consistency and they survived just fine. Of course, some pieces in the Julsrud collection are beautifully fired. Steedy's effort does more to support Julsrud collection than to refute it. He effectively demonstrates the determination of the establishment to defend evolutionary dogma in the face of the devastating implications of this truly significant find."
A bit of detail on testing and investigation
"Hapgood excavated a number of sites that were on previously undisturbed ground and found many pieces of ceramic figurines of the "Julsrud" type. To eliminate any possibility of fraud that Tinajero or anyone else had manufactured the ceramics, Hapgood decided to excavate beneath a house that had been built in 1930, long before any artifacts were found on El Toro Hill. They found a house directly over the site owned by the chief of police, asked permission to dig beneath the floor of his house. Permission was granted, and they dug a six-foot deep pit beneath the hard concrete floor of the living room, unearthing dozens of the controversial objects. Since the house had been built twenty five years before Julsrud arrived in Mexico, it exonerated Julsrud, eliminated the hoax theory and negated Dipeso's as well as Noquera's reports at all the important points.
In 1968 Charles Hapgood returned to Acambaro accompanied by Earle Stanley Gardner of Perry Mason fame. Mr. Gardner was not only trained in criminology but was also an investigator of archaeological problems. He was supremely impressed with the vastness and the variety of the collection. It was quite clear that Mr. Gardner considered the fake theory completely false, outrageous and deceptive!
The radiocarbon 14 method of dating was still in its infancy, but Hapgood acquired specimens for C14 testing.6 Gardner and Andrew Young (inventor of the Bell Helicopter) financed the testing.
Hapgood submitted the samples to the Laboratory of Isotopes Inc. in New Jersey. The results were as follows:
Sample No. 1
(I-3842) 3590 + - 100 (C.1640 BC)
Sample No. 2
(I-4015) 6480 + - 170 (C. 4530 BC)
Sample No. 3
(I-4031)3060 + - 120 (C. 1110 BC)
The radiocarbon dates of up to 4,500 B.C for Carbon on the ceramics would make the collection the oldest in the Western Hemisphere.
In 1972, Arthur Young submitted two of the figurines to Dr. Froelich Rainey, the director of the Pennsylvania Museum for Thermoluminescent Dating. The Masca lab had obtained thermoluminescent dates of up to 2,700 B.C. In a letter dated September 13, 1972, addressed to Mr. Young, Dr Rainey said:
"...Now after we have had years of experimentation both here and at the lab at Oxford, we have no doubt about the dependability of the thermoluminescent method. We may have errors of up to 5-10% in absolute dating, but we are no longer concerned about unexpected bugs that might put the whole system in doubt. I should also point out, that we were so concerned about the extraordinarily ancient dates of these figures, that Mark Han in our lab made an average of 18 runs on each one of the four samples. Hence, there is a very substantial bit of research in these particular pieces... All in all the lab stands on these dates for the Julsrud material, whatever that means in terms of archeological dating in Mexico, or in terms of 'fakes verse's authentic' pieces."
But when the lab at the University of Pennsylvania found out that dinosaurs were part of the collection, they retracted their thermoluminescent. They asserted that the ceramics gave off regenerated light signals and could be no more than 30 years old.
A thermoluminescent technician admitted that no other ceramics existed, in his experience, that produced regenerated light signals, and no other thermoluminescent dating of ceramics had ever been done by utilization of a regenerated light signal. In short, the testing was a hocus pocus, laboratory trick to avoid the obvious conclusion that dinosaurs and man lived together."
Even skeptics admit that the Acambaro collection is a powerful case for coexistence of dinosaur and man. But part of the story of Acambaro is the laboratory results that consistently reveal ages of more than 2,000 years for these figurines...until the technicians realize the implications of the findings and then fall over themselves trying to reverse their fields.
Subterfuge and lies have been part of the creation versus macroevolution argument. The Ica stones appear to be a hoax, recent works passed off as ancient. There are doubts about some human prints found in stone such as the "Meister print" and the "Zapata track". The Paluxy River area is a rich source of possible dinosaur-with-man prints even though tourists in the first part of the 20th century made away with some of the tracks. One of the best human tracks was destroyed in 1992, according to the bible.ca site. But Glen Kuban of Talkorigins denies strongly that he was involved and hints that no vandalism took place (I believe he is telling the truth that he did not go to the site and damage anything, although his rebuttal includes some incorrect information). Now I personally view Kuban's site, just as I view Dr.Dino's site, as propagandists willing to stretch the truth or at least unwilling to include all the truth when they make their posts. You won't see me blogrolling Dr. Dino and you won't see me pay any attention when a macroevolutionist links to talkorigins, either. I also freely admit that sometimes a site like bible.ca misses the boat as well. It is a subject that transcends science and segues into the worldview where often facts get twisted like pretzels to make them fit.
In the case of Acambaro, however, no reasonable macroevolutionist has come up with an honest rebuttal or explanation as to how ancient peoples could have molded dinosaur statues with more accuracy than the scientists of the time they were discovered. No reasonable explanation has been given by macroevolutionists for the hundreds of drawings, carvings and figurines of dinosaurs done by people long before paleontologists began finding dinosaur fossils and providing representations of what their appearance might have been. No good explanation has been given for the multitudes of stories about dinosaurs, not just as stories but as historical narratives in records kept by government and other officials.
For Bible-believers, attempts to characterize Leviathan and Behemoth as a crocodile and hippopatumus, respectively, have received the scorn they deserve. Even the Bible records dinosaurs, often with the word being translated as dragon. The record of human history, both written and described graphically as paintings, drawings, carvings and figurines, is that of co-existence with dinosaurs for many hundreds of years.
(PS- No, I did not have to go on a long trip, hurray!)