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Thursday, December 14, 2006

Prophecy feedback and dating Egypt

As usual, comments will be in italics with my responses in normal text:

cranky old fart said...

Radar,

First of all your Mr. "Universe was created after last call on Oct. 23, 4004 BCE" didn't say Egypt was drained of all people and animals for 40 years, so you still owe me a source, not visa versa.


My source said it was drained of all people, and the custom of the day was to capture and/or kill the people and take the livestock. So, like it or lump it, that is what happened.

Second, as creeper and I remind you above, you are Mr. "the Bible is literal", so don't suddenly give me all this symbolic stuff on something as straight forward as:

"No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years"


I gave you a brief synopsis of how poetic/prophetic language works throughout the Bible. Highboy mentioned this as well. You don't have the advantage of taking multiple Bible classes in college (I have taken several, at seminary) so it may be hard for you to understand, perhaps, don't know. But I do have an honest explanation based on the Bible, history and the established methods of studying Bible prophecy. What have you got?

Third, we note that Ussher was working in the 17th century. The rosetta stone wasn't even discovered until the 19th. Poor Bishop Ussher was working 200 yars before the dawn of Egyptology and the mountain of new resources that have been brought to the table. All modern sources clearly describe a 26th dynasty in Egypt that, of course, has no 40 year lifeless gap predicted by Ezekiel.

"All modern sources" being exactly whom? Is there any extant Egyptian historical documentation? Are there copies not written by Egyptians? Ussher himself noted that Scaliger said about the Egyptians, "The priests of Egypt told Herodotus of such things as he desired to know. They spoke only of things that glorified their country, but concealed the rest. This showed their cowardice and slavery, by concealing the payment of tribute they made to the Chaldeans."

Ussher used the best sources available in his time period, relying primarily on sources like Herodotus(484–425 BC), who was alive during the time period when Egypt was emptied of people and recorded the same, and Xenophon (427-355 BC) who was an historian born shortly after the events occurred. He also depended on the works of great scholars like Joseph Justus Scaliger, who among other things restored the Chronicle of Eusebius and specialized in the ancient histories of the Persians, the Babylonians, the Jews and the Egyptians.

Modern scholars who depend on writings more recently collected, whose origins usually are somewhat suspect, realize that their timelines don't match up with those of the ancients, who give a much shorter duration to the kingdoms of Egypt and attribute less power to them as well.

Imagine two thousand years from now, when archaeologists dig up a Soviet history textbook from 1975 and begin to rewrite history. They would discover, to their amazement, that Soviets invented the light bulb, the television, flight, heck, even washing machines!!!! Names like Wright and Edison would be wiped from college textbooks to be replaced by names like Sergei Sergeiovich. In the same manner, these scholars find the hyped-up "historical documents of Egypt" and ignore Herodotus entirely. What did he know? He may have been there, but we have the rosetta stone!!!


Finally, your souce says all the world was wiped out in 2349 BCE, so, in any case, ya gotta question his dating of Egyptian history which goes back, according to most every modern historian, to at least 3000 BCE.

Looking forward to your next rationalization.


While I am looking forward to your first bit of evidence to support your statements. Allow me to say again something said before, to refresh everyone's memories about Egypt and modern Egyptology:

~~~~~~~Today's Primary Post~~~~~~~

Manetho and Egyptian History: The original works are lost.

Manetho is the prime source used by those who study ancient Egypt geneologies.

"Despite Manetho's importance for the study of the history of Ancient Egypt, nothing much is really known about the man himself. Even the exact meaning of his name has been a point of discussion among Egyptologists and although it is now generally agreed upon that the name "Manetho" comes from the Ancient Egyptian mniw-htr, which means "keeper of the horses", the existence of such a name is not attested by Ancient Egyptian sources.

Manetho lived in Sebennytos, the capital of Egypt during the 30th Dynasty, and was a priest during the reigns of Ptolemy I and Ptolemy II. He is said to have been involved in the creation of the cult of Serapis - a god added to the Egyptian pantheon with both Hellenistic and Egyptian traits during the reign of Ptolemy I -, but this can not be confirmed.

Manetho owes his importance to the fact that he wrote the Aegyptiaca, a collection of three books about the history of Ancient Egypt, commissioned by Ptolemy II in his effort to bring together the Egyptian and Hellenistic cultures."
Ancient-Egypt.org

The same source reveals that - "Soon after the original composition, the Aegyptiaca was epitomised, probably by extracting a framework of kings to which clung the occasional historical statement. At the same time, however, the original work was being abused, commented and falsified for political and religious motives. It is not unlikely that at this time, new works about the history of Egypt were being written under Manetho's name. Such works were often full of tendentious commentaries and anachronisms.

The classical authors who copied, commented or made references to the Aegyptiaca were thus confronted with different sources, all claiming to have been based on the original work. Josephus knew both the original Aegyptiaca or its epitome, and the fake Manethoan literature, but he was often unable to distinguish between them. Africanus knew and used the epitomised Aegyptiaca, while Eusebius quoted from Africanus and from a version of the Epitome altered by the Hellenistic Jews for religious purposes."


So, whereas the Genesis material has been carefully copied and documented for over three thousand years, the original work of Manetho is not available and there is no certainty of the accuracy of the currently available references to his work. This doesn't discount the available information but makes the researcher aware that total accuracy will not be found. Even before we delve too deeply into Manetho we know that it will be a source for approximate dates rather than a resource for certainty.

Manetho recorded The Tower of Babel and birth of Peleg as historical events!

"An interesting piece of information comes from Manetho, who recorded the history of Egypt in the third century BC. He wrote that the Tower of Babel occurred five years after the birth of Peleg. If this was so, then this would confirm that the migrations recorded in Genesis 10 occurred over a period of time, for the apparent leaders of many of these national groups would have been very young children when the confusion of languages occurred." Larry Pierce.

Pierce makes a strong case for using the Bible with other ancient resources to better establish the beginning of Egypt:

" Four generations after Noah, Genesis 10:25 records the birth of Peleg (meaning division) ‘for in his days was the earth divided’. Some suggest the continents of the earth were divided at this time. However, this seems unlikely, as such a process would have had to occur within a very confined time period. The resultant geological violence would be overwhelmingly catastrophic—like another Noahic Flood all over again. Any continental separation thus likely occurred during the Flood.

The traditional interpretation, which seems more reasonable, relates this verse to the division of people/nations at the Tower of Babel event in Genesis 11. (Just like the English ‘earth’ can have a variety of meanings, the Hebrew erets can also mean nation(s)—thus erets Yisrael, the land (nation, people) of Israel.) According to the biblical chronology as deduced by Archbishop Ussher, the Flood occurred in 2349–2348 BC, and Peleg was born in 2247 BC about a hundred years later. Do ancient writers shed any light on when this happened? The answer is a resounding yes.


Babylon begins

The year was 331 BC. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius at Gaugmela near Arbela, he journeyed to Babylon. Here he received 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans, which they claimed dated back to the founding of Babylon. If this was so, then that would place the founding of Babylon in 2234 BC, or about thirteen years after the birth of Peleg. This was recorded in the sixth book of De Caelo (‘About the heavens’) by Simplicius, a Latin writer in the 6th century AD. Porphyry (an anti-Christian Greek philosopher, c. 234–305 AD) also deduced the same number.

Egypt emerges

The Byzantine chronicler Constantinus Manasses (d. 1187) wrote that the Egyptian state lasted 1663 years. If correct, then counting backward from the time that Cambyses, king of Persia, conquered Egypt in 526 BC, gives us the year of 2188 BC for the founding of Egypt, about 60 years after the birth of Peleg. About this time Mizraim, the son of Ham, led his colony into Egypt. Hence the Hebrew word for Egypt is Mizraim4 (or sometimes ‘the land of Ham’ e.g. Psalm 105:23,27)."

Dr. Clifford Wilson suggests that there is evidence that Moses got his geneologies not from word-of-mouth and inspiration of God but from written records: New Conditions After The Flood

"After the Flood, atmospheric and climatic conditions apparently changed, and the potential life-span of all created beings was dramatically reduced. Archaeologists such as Professor Samuel N. Kramer have pointed to the record outside the Bible of the dispersion that took place at the time of the building of the Tower of Babel. Eminent Professor William Foxwell Albright wrote about the astonishing accuracy of the ‘Table of Nations’ in Genesis chapter 10. The fragmentary ‘Epic of Atrahasis’—including both creation and the Flood—has caused some scholars to acknowledge that Genesis chapters 1 to 11 were written as literal history. That history starts at Genesis chapter 1—and the term ‘mythical'; (even used in a philosophical sense) should not be applied to the Bible record.

Records Written Before Moses

Another interesting point is that those early Genesis records were in written form even before the time of Moses (he collated them). Way back in 1948 P.J. Wiseman had his book published, New Discoveries in Babylonia About Genesis. His son, Professor Donald J. Wiseman, retired Professor of Assyriology a London University, recently updated his father’s work in Clues to Creation in Genesis, supporting the basic theories of his late father.

The early records were written on clay tablets, divided by the literary device of a colophon at the end of each tablet—indicated by the words, ‘These are the generations of...’."


It is Egyptian Chronologies which require adjustment.

"By the traditional chronology of Egyptian history the 18th dynasty ruled from about 1550 to 1320 BC. According to Bible chronology the Exodus occurred about 1446 BC. But there is no evidence from 18th dynasty Egyptian records of a major disaster such as would have resulted from the 10 devastating plagues that fell on Egypt, or of the destruction of the Egyptian army during this period. Nor is there archaeological evidence for an invasion of Palestine under Joshua during this period.

The solution to this problem is a recognition that the chronology of Egypt needs to be reduced by centuries, bringing the 12th dynasty down to the time of Moses and the Exodus. When this is done there is found abundant evidence for the presence of large numbers of Semitic slaves at the time of Moses, the devastation of Egypt and the sudden departure of these slaves.

A reduction of the chronology of Egypt would also be reflected in the interpretation of the archaeological ages in Israel. There is little evidence for an invasion of Palestine at the end of the Late Bronze Period. But at the end of the Early Bronze Period there is evidence of Jericho’s fallen walls and the arrival of a new people with a new culture who should be identified as the invading Israelites under Joshua."
- Archaeologist David Down.

What follows is an excerpt from Down's article in Journal of Creation (TJ) Archive > Volume 15 Issue 1

A proposed revision of Egyptian chronology

"It is true that there is no evidence for Moses, the ten plagues that fell upon Egypt or the exodus ‘at that time’. But there are a number of scholars who claim that a gross error in chronology has been made in calculating the dates of Egyptian history and that they should be reduced by centuries. Such a re-dating could bring the 12th dynasty down to the time of Moses, and there is plenty of circumstantial evidence in that dynasty to support the Biblical records.

One of the last kings of the 12th dynasty was Sesostris III. His statues depict him as a cruel tyrant quite capable of inflicting harsh slavery on his subjects. His son was Amenemhet III, who seems to have been an equally disagreeable character. He probably ruled for 46 years, and Moses would have been born near the beginning of his reign.

Amenemhet III may have had one son, known as Amenemhet IV, who was an enigmatic character who may have followed his father or may have been a co-regent with him. If the latter, Amenemhet IV could well have been Moses. Amenemhet IV mysteriously disappeared off the scene before the death of Amenemhet III.

Amenemhet III had a daughter whose name was Sobekneferu. It is known that she had no children. If she was the daughter of Pharaoh who came down to the river to bathe, it is easy to understand why she was there. It was not because she had no bathroom in her palace. She would have been down there taking a ceremonial ablution and praying to the river god Hapi, who was also the god of fertility. Having no children she would have needed such a god, and when she found the beautiful baby Moses there she would have considered it an answer to her prayers (Exodus 2:5—6).

But when Moses came of age he identified himself with the people of Israel and was obliged to flee from Egypt. This left a vacuum on the throne, and when Amenemhet III died there was no male successor. Sobekneferu ascended the throne and ruled for 8 years as a Pharaoh, but when she died the dynasty died and was succeeded by the 13th dynasty.

The Israelite slaves

For the past 15 years I have been promoting a revised chronology for Egypt. This results in identifying the Semitic slaves, who were employed in building the pyramids of the 12th dynasty at Kahun in the Faiyyum, as the Israelite slaves referred to in the book of Exodus. Fifteen years ago I was regarded as being out of touch with archaeological reality, but time has changed all that.

Of course, Dr Immanuel Velikovsky proposed the same revision before I did, and so did Dr Donoville Courville, but they were written off as irrelevant because they were not archaeologists. Since then, recognized archaeological scholars have joined the chorus of revision.

In 1991, Peter James published his book Centuries of Darkness, claiming that the chronology of Egypt should be reduced by 250 years. James was a reputable scholar, and his book carried a preface by Professor Colin Renfrew of Cambridge University recognizing that ‘a chronological revolution is on its way’ (p. XVI), claiming that ‘history will have to be rewritten’ (p. XIV). In 1995, David Rohl published A Test of Time, in which he claimed that the chronology of Egypt should be reduced by 350 years. All this meant that the end of the 12th dynasty of Egypt would be dated to the 15th century BC, which would be about the time of the Biblical Exodus, and the slaves known to have lived at Kahun and laboured on the building of the 12th dynasty pyramids were the Israelite slaves.

Professor Bryant Wood, from the Associates for Biblical Research, has also concluded that the Semitic slaves who lived at Kahun were indeed the Israelites. He reaches his conclusion from a different perspective but the end result is the same. He concludes that the period of 430 years mentioned in Exodus 12:40 was not the total period of time from Abraham to the Exodus, as seemingly implied in Galatians 3:17, but was the actual period of the Israelite presence in Egypt. This assumption would likewise place the Israelite slaves in the 12th dynasty

The evidence very well fits the Biblical record which says,

‘There arose a new king over Egypt who did not know Joseph. And he said to his people, "Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; come, let us deal wisely with them, lest they multiply and it happen in the event of war, that they join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land." Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens’ (Exodus 1:8—11).

Sir Flinders Petrie excavated the city of Kahun in the Faiyyum and Dr Rosalie David wrote a book about his excavations in which she said,

‘It is apparent that the Asiatics were present in the town in some numbers, and this may have reflected the situation elsewhere in Egypt … . Their exact homeland in Syria or Palestine cannot be determined … . The reason for their presence in Egypt remains unclear.’

Neither Rosalie David nor Flinders Petrie could identify these Semitic slaves with the Israelites because they held to the traditional chronology which placed the Biblical event centuries later than the 12th dynasty.

There was another interesting discovery Petrie made. ‘Larger wooden boxes, probably used originally to store clothing and other possessions, were discovered underneath the floors of many houses at Kahun. They contained babies, sometimes buried two or three to a box, and aged only a few months at death.’

There is a Biblical explanation for this. Pharaoh had ordered the Hebrew midwives, ‘When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birth stools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him’ (Exodus1:16). The midwives ignored this command so ‘Pharaoh commanded all his people saying, "Every son who is born you shall cast into the river … " ’ (verse 22). Many grieving mothers must have had their babies snatched from their arms and killed. They apparently buried them in boxes beneath the floors of their houses.

Another striking feature of Petrie’s discoveries was the fact that these slaves suddenly disappeared off the scene. Rosalie David wrote:

‘It is apparent that the completion of the king’s pyramid was not the reason why Kahun’s inhabitants eventually deserted the town, abandoning their tools and other possessions in the shops and houses.’

‘There are different opinions of how this first period of occupation at Kahun drew to a close ... . The quantity, range and type of articles of everyday use which were left behind in the houses may indeed suggest that the departure was sudden and unpremeditated.’

The departure was sudden and unpremeditated! Nothing could better fit the Biblical record. ‘And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years–on that very same day–it came to pass that all the armies of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt’ (Exodus 12:41).

The ten plagues on Egypt

Pharaoh had yielded to Moses’ demands to allow his slaves to leave because of the ten devastating plagues that fell on Egypt (Exodus 7—12). The waters of the sacred River Nile were turned to blood, herds and flocks were smitten with pestilence, lightning set combustible material on fire, hail flattened the crops and struck the fruit trees, and locusts blanketed the country and consumed what might have been left of plant life. The economy of Egypt would have been so shattered that there should be some record of such a national catastrophe–and there is.

In the Leiden Museum in Holland is a papyrus written in a later period, but most scholars recognize it as being a copy of a papyrus from an earlier dynasty. It could have been from the 13th dynasty describing the conditions that prevailed after the plagues had struck. It reads,

‘Nay, but the heart is violent. Plague stalks through the land and blood is everywhere … . Nay, but the river is blood. Does a man drink from it? As a human he rejects it. He thirsts for water … . Nay, but gates, columns and walls are consumed with fire … . Nay but men are few. He that lays his brother in the ground is everywhere … . Nay but the son of the high-born man is no longer to be recognized … . The stranger people from outside are come into Egypt … . Nay, but corn has perished everywhere. People are stripped of clothing, perfume and oil. Everyone says "there is no more". The storehouse is bare … . It has come to this. The king has been taken away by poor men.’"


There is excellent evidence to suggest that the Biblical geneologies are accurate and it is the Egyptian dates that are incorrect. In addition, the Egyptian records indicate a flood, the Tower of Babel and a start for the empire after the birth of Peleg (one of the Bible Patriarchs). All of this is consistent with the creation scenario.

It is well known that writing began with the children of Israel. What is not often publicized is the occasional find of writings in the fossil record. One could suggest that it is probable men were writing long before the flood but such records were almost entirely wiped out along with other traces of culture by the incredibly dynamic and violent Flood. The Bible account is the only one we have concerning life before the Flood and the growth of civilization thereafter. It appears that Manetho does not present evidence to the contrary.

~~~~~~~Back to comments~~~~~~~

cranky old fart said...

"You reject the Gospels because of the lack of contemporary sources"

I said that? When?

Dude, I'd be the last one to claim the Bible is literal. That is radar's position, except when it's not.

BTW, the flood is less contradicted by the age of Egypt (since the 2349 thing is just hilarious on its own) than by the lack of physical evidence.


Read the post above and say that again, cranky. There is a great deal of evidence that states that you just don't know what you are talking about but merely parroting the liberal propaganda. The "2349 thing" has more going for it that anything you have come up with to date.

xiangtao said...

"Please. Radar has posted a mountain of evidence pointing to the Deluge. I'll leave that to him."

Actually, radar posted a mountain of assertions which were never backed up with any real evidence.


Trying to be civil, xiangtao, but that statement is complete excrement of bull. I actually have posted a ton of evidence concerning the flood, not simply assertions. Here are some 34 posts I have made on the subject!

When it comes to evidences surrounding the Flood, I point to the same evidences that evolutionists use to back their claims. I interpret the evidence differently and have a bit more documentation (re: The Bible) than they do to back it up. I have presented at least as much evidence as any commenter, heck, more. Xiangtao speaketh with forked tongue!

This post segues nicely into tomorrow, in which we look into the commenter's thoughts on rapid speciation and the loss of genetic information during the operation of natural selection and how these observed facts support creation rather than evolution. See you then!

6 comments:

highboy said...

Excellent post Radar. The original assertion was that the history of Egypt contradicted the Deluge. When I pointed out that there were no contemporary sources that validate this, and the entire dating system of ancient Egypt is considered suspect, the assertion wasn't retracted or modified, simply ignored. The fact that out of all of ancient civilizations, Egypt is the only one that has no account or perspective of a flood account points to an earlier dating.

The idea that because one takes the book of Genesis, an historical account, literally therefore said person must take the whole Bible in a literal sense is just ridiculous and a lame tactic to attempt to box someone in. Very few people take every word of prophecy or Hebrew poetry in a 100% literal sense. We'd be gouging out our eyeballs and cutting off our hands.

lava said...

Radar,
First of all, let me say I really enjoy reading your blog. While I don't agree with almost anything you say, you post some interesting arguments/ideas. It is interesting to hear how the other half thinks.

Second, this whole Noah's Ark thing and a 6,000 year old earth just baffles me. I'd love to know at some point in the future your thoughts on how humans spread and different races "occured". I don't know how many people were supposedly on the ark, but I just don't get how its possible that those people repopulated, spread to the 4 corners of the earth, and so many different/distinct races "occured". All in under 6,000 years. A follow up to that question is, do you believe current dating techniques are just wrong? Evidence suggests humans have been around a whole lot longer then that.

xiangtao said...

Some highlights from radar's flood series:


"In an antediluvian world with just one continent, covering the tallest peak by twenty feet could happen with an outpouring of water that had been trapped underground and rising of sea floors"

"In order for the life we now have on this planet to have been contained in the Ark, that life that could not have been sustained outside of the Ark, there would have had to have been about 16,000 kinds of vertebrates and birds carried along with Noah. Based upon the nutrional needs of these animals, Noah and his family could have theoretically worked in shifts and cared for their needs. It is certainly reasonable, however, that because of both the emotional impact that such a voyage would have on the animals and also the strain of constant care that would be placed upon the crew, that God caused the animals to enter some kind of state of hibernation for a good part of the voyage and that he probably sent along the smallest viable juveniles rather than full-grown adults."

"There are clues in the fossil record that the Earth's atmosphere was somewhat different pre-Flood. The physical structure of dinosaur remains seem to tell us that the world included an atmosphere that was more oxygen-rich and that animals, like humans, had longer lifespans. Dinosaurs, being a kind of lizard, likely just continued to grow during their lives and therefore for them to reach such amazing proportions would have had the ability to live far beyond the lifespans of modern animals. However, these creatures should not have been able to live in an atmosphere like we have today."

These are a few selections of many that are assertions of things that "might" have happened, with no evidence that they actually did happen. If you go back and read the comments of these articles, you will find plenty of comments along the lines of "evidence please". Naturally these requests are ignored.

lava said...

So- dinosaurs and humans, radar. Did they coexist? Did they die pre-flood?

radar said...

Did dinosaurs and man exist together at any time? I assert strongly yes, they did and that there is a great deal of documentation and other strong evidences that there were dinosaurs not only in BC but also AD days. I posted a lot on that subject back in the spring and summer of this year.

Do a quick blog search on my blog with the word "dinosaur". Behemoths and Leviathans and Dragons, oh my! is one of my favorites. Beowulf, Grendel and a preponderance of dinosaurs is another one. There are at least two posts dealing to a great extent with Acambaro and others...well, you will hopefully check out a few of them.

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