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Wednesday, July 11, 2012

When it becomes a crime to study the Bible, it is the law of man that is criminal and not the student! UPDATED!!!

Do you know your First Amendment to the Constitution?  

Important update!!!  July 13, 2012

I do think that so-called "hate crimes" are simply the first step in bringing down the First Amendment and need to be scrubbed from the books.  There are either crimes or crimes not.  We do not need thought police!

It appears that the Salmans were lying about their home and actually were trying to have a church while not having a church and sneaking around the law rather than obeying it, perhaps for tax purposes or to save building costs or whatever.  Wrong is wrong.

Here is the real deal on the Salman case: 


  "Pictured left is a man named, Michael Hashem Salman. On Fox News and Glen Beck’s site and the rest of America he’s known as, Pastor Michael Salman. Salman has been in the news recently for apparently (according to “Pastor” Mike) for being “persecuted” by the City of Phoenix.

Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group. The most common forms are religious persecution, ethnic persecution, and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, isolation, imprisonment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution. Even so, not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate. (source Wikipedia definition)

A very popular video lately has been making its rounds on the Internet where Michael Salman and his wife Suzanne Salman lay out their case before the public forum. In that video Michael H. Salman is wearing a T-shirt from (otherwise known as Voice of the Martyrs) sold as “Illegal Shirt.”

When I first heard of this story over this weekend it was through a link someone sent me for Glenn Beck’s site. I skimmed through the article and clicked on the YouTube video but was only able to watch a few broken minutes on my phone, so later this weekend I watched the whole video and instantly had suspicions. I live in Arizona and I had not even heard of this guy’s story. I gathered so much information within a few hours yesterday that by the end of the day I was no longer frustrated so much with Michael Hashem Salman as I was with you the readers and audience of Mainstream Media for believing this fabricated story without doing some minor searches yourself. I’m sure every Pastor who’s politically minded and concerned for our rights as Christians lifted up this “poor, persecuted, brother” in prayer and warned the congregation that being a Christian is becoming a crime in America, when in fact it is not–not yet.

I will break this story down as succinctly as possible and provide you with all the links to all the research I did on this story so you can COPY and PASTE and send in a Chain e-mail letter to all your friends before Salman is considered a “Martyr” for the faith, when in my opinion he is not.

AGREED.   7/13/2012

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Dear Americans - The "progressives" are attempting to criminalize Christianity and invent "thought crimes", which is the next logical step after the ridiculous idea of "hate crimes!"   If you let them arrest your neighbor for gathering to study the Bible, when do they come for you?  How far will it go?  Know your history!


Dietrich Bonhoeffer  "(February 4, 1906 – April 9, 1945) was a German Lutheran pastor, theologian and activive member of German resistance movement against Nazism.  He was also a founding member of the Confessing Church (a Christian resistance movement in Nazi Germany)."

The above link gives a tiny part of his story.  I like this one better, for it is longer and captures in small quantity the quality of Dietrich's life.  An exerpt:

"...Bonhoeffer taught a confirmation class in what he described as “about the worst area of Berlin,” yet he moved into that neighborhood so he could spend more time with the boys.

Bonhoeffer was fascinated by Gandhi’s methods of nonviolent resistance. He asked for—and received—permission to visit Gandhi and live at his ashram. The two never met, however, because the crisis in Germany demanded Bonhoeffer’s attention.

Bonhoeffer served as a member of the Abwehr, the military-intelligence organization under Hitler. (He was actually a double agent. While ostensibly working for the Abwehr, Bonhoeffer helped to smuggle Jews into Switzerland—and do other underground tasks.)

Bonhoeffer studied for a year in New York City. He was uniformly disappointed with the preaching he heard there: “One may hear sermons in New York upon almost any subject; one only is never handled, … namely, the gospel of Jesus Christ, of the cross, of sin and forgiveness.… ”

While a student at Union Theological Seminary in New York, Bonhoeffer regularly attended the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem. He taught one youth Sunday school class and one women’s Bible study; he also helped weekly in Sunday school.

Bonhoeffer learned to drive a car while in the United States—yet he failed his American driver’s-license examination three times.

Bonhoeffer directed an illegal seminary for two and a half years until it was closed by the Gestapo. The seminary trained pastors for the “Confessing Church,” a group Bonhoeffer and others had formed as an alternative to the Nazi-influenced German Reich Church. It was at this seminary that he developed his classic work The Cost of Discipleship.

Just before World War II, Bonhoeffer was invited to lecture in the United States. This allowed him to escape increasing persecution and the impending draft. But Bonhoeffer decided he must share the fate of those suffering in Germany. In less than a month, he returned home.

In 1936, because of his anti-Nazi views, Bonhoeffer was no longer permitted to teach at the University of Berlin. Two years later, he was forbidden to live in Berlin. In 1940, the German authorities forbade him to speak in public, and he had to report regularly to the police.

Bonhoeffer was engaged to be married, but he was arrested and eventually killed before he and his fiancee could be married..."



Why is this relevant, you ask?  Because here in America persecution against Christians is ramping up and here is one example.   A friend passed me this link and I easily found lots of news sources:

Phoenix Man Faces Jail Time for Home Bible Studies  (go here to see video)

Should Pastor Michael Salman Be in Jail Over Home Bible Study? Judge For Yourself

Arizona pastor Michael Salman is currently in jail, serving a 60-day sentence, after he hosted Bible studies in his home. In the videos below, Salman shows footage of the police raid of his home in 2009 and also gives a tour of his 4.6 acre property to show why he shouldn't have been fined and jailed.

In 2010, Salman was found guilty of fire and zoning code violations for hosting Bible studies on his 4.6 acre property, which he has been doing for the past 7 years. He was sentenced to 60 days in jail along with three years probation and ordered to pay a $12,180 fine.

He claims he is a victim of religious discrimination. However, the city of Phoenix said it is a matter of zoning violations, not religious freedom.



Chaos Engineer said...

If you actually read the Christian Post article, they didn't arrest Rev. Salman for studying the Bible. They arrested him for building without a permit, violating the fire code, and violating zoning regulations. Those laws apply to everybody, not just Christians, so there's no First Amendment issue.

What would have happened if there had been a fire?

Also, this might be a good time to remind people that the laws against drive-by-shootings also apply to Christians. I noticed that this is another law that Rev. Salman has trouble following. Check the bottom of this article:

I've got to ask again - when you re-post stories, do you read them all the way through, or do you just read the headline and then copy-and-paste the rest?

radar said...

So a private investigator shows up with the people who usually come, did you expect Salman to toss him out? They arrested him by applying commercial zoning laws to his residence. He makes a great case that, in his neighborhood, no one is harassed for having a game room or indoor pool where lots of people may come, only him.

He says he is having private services on his private property. I read through four stories about this before I posted it. Not one of them suggested that Salman had built a church and actually applied to build a church.

Nevertheless, the over the top flood of police ready for battle and a small army of officials following was not the way someone checks for zoning violations. Even the prosecutor conceded this and it seemed that the judge went beyond the prosecutor's recommendations for sentencing as well.

Salman is apparently a man with a violent past who became a Christian and left the violence behind. He has also been singled out for exceptional treatment at the hands of the authorities.

This article you link brings up something I did not know and we'll see if it is true. Did Salman actually apply for a church building and then defy the law, or did the city use a different set of rules to persecute him unlike others in his neighborhood and city? It is a fair question and I will keep eyes and ears open for what comes next.

If Salman has pulled a Kent Hovind and tried to have his cake and eat it, too, I will make a follow-up post about it all. I guess either way I will have to make a second post to either confirm the news I first received or to amend and point out what Salman did wrong. It would be a good opportunity to remind Christians about our responsibility to the government and family and to God is and in what order one applies that responsibility. If Salman actually applied for a church permit and then did not obey zoning regulations for a church, then he has lied to the public and lots of news outlets that picked up the story, secular and otherwise. In that case he brought trouble upon himself.

radar said...

So Chaos, if Salman was telling the truth then he did not violate any zoning laws at all. In that case he has been mistreated and we should all be concerned. In that case he is being persecuted and the City of Phoenix is breaking the First Amendment.

If Salman is lying, then he did violate zoning laws and you cannot do that. In that case he has put himself in the mess and lying will not free him. In fact, it would preclude him from being a pastor Biblically. So this is a big deal for him because God knows the truth and He will not bless ministry based upon lies.

I will stay on top of this and when I have time this weekend I will do some digging and figure it out either/or.

Anonymous said...

If the facts are indeed as presented by phx (, then this guy is what I called a liar. I watched all 17+ minutes of that video (and feel much dumber for having done so). It seems the issue he has is he calls his gatherings bible studies with family and friends. If its true that: Mr. Salman had regular gatherings of up to 80 people. He held services twice a week and collected a tithe at the services. The building that he held services in had a dais and chairs were aligned in a pew formation. He held himself out as a being a church through the media (Harvest Christian Church) and claimed a church status for tax exemption purposes on his property., Then I'd consider him a liar.

Somehow, I'll guess Radar aligns with the good Pastor on this one. Just guessing based on Radar's prior experiences of having difficulty comprehending legal concepts.


radar said...

Actually lava, you are both wrong and right.

I was right about a judge being able to rule in court on evidence presented for evolution and creation, so I dismiss your attitude as unjust. You may or may not be a lawyer but I presented the law to you and you may not like it, but it is truth.

As for Salman, he apparently belongs in the Kent Hovind hall of fame. It seems he was telling us he was having a home bible study and yet was trying to have a church and lied to people about the situation. It now becomes clear to me why Jan Brewer didn't step in because there was no need.

The City of Phoenix maybe went overboard. But Salman actually did defy zoning laws so I am not supporting his "cause" at all. Just as I abandoned Kent Hovind and advised people to ignore his website when he deliberately defied the government and built a museum/park against the law and other such matters. He also continued to present the carcass of a basking shark as a dinosaur after we found it what it really was.

Talkorigins website (Darwinist) is equally at fault for knowingly posting false information. So again I say that I lump talkorigins and Dr.Dino together as bad witnesses.

Salman has forfeited his right to be a pastor in this case and his blatant lies that sucked in a lot of websites and news organizations at first have been revealed. So until further notice I have to say Salman lied and he is paying the price.

Anonymous said...


You were not right about the Life Science thing. And, you still think Obama violated his duty as an "officer of the court" as an attorney in not turning in a relative to authorities who overstayed a VISA. You just don't get it and I don't think you ever will.