ANTI-SCIENCE DARWINISTS CANNOT EVEN GIVE A REASON FOR REASONING! The mind boggles at the hilarity of Darwinist "thought" that denies our ability to actually think for ourselves!
and made my answers to his points, glad to have a reasoned argument presented!
Evolution versus Creation. Examining Hyper-Calvinism from a commenter's post. Conceptualizing the differences. Chaos Engineer Edition.
So Chaos Engineer had another set of questions and statements worth making public. Now my promised answers for Chaos, with his comments in black and mine in normal font:
Chaos-Engineer has left a new comment on your post "Evolution versus Creation. Examining Hyper-Calvin...":
Sorry to get back to you so late...
I'd like to look at this bit that you wrote in more detail:
But the truth is that Pharaoh was given the chance to decide to free the Jews. God did not force him to have a hardened heart. But once Pharaoh deliberately hardened his heart after already experiencing five plagues on his people (and not on the Jews), God then more or less made the condition permanent after the sixth plague so that His power could be demonstrated to Egypt and all peoples for all time.
Under the naive definition of "Free Will", Pharaoh was making choices freely, which means that he could have made a different choice at any time. But according to the text, God already knew with complete certainty what choices he'd make - so Pharaoh couldn't have made a different choice.
I see no straight logical line here. We have Pharaoh>Egypt>Moses. God is not causing Pharaoh to say or do anything. Moses and Aaron stated that the actual situation was God>Pharaoh>Egypt>Moses and actually used His spokesmen to obey chain of command and ask that Pharaoh allow the (unjustly) enslaved Jews to go free. Pharaoh would not acknowledge the superiority of God despite the promised plagues ALWAYS happening just as predicted. Pharaoh was not helpless, he was egotistical and obstinate and deceptive.
To make sense of this, I'd need to use a better definition of "Free Will". I might say that it means that Pharaoh was "acting according to his nature, with no outside interference". Once Pharaoh's nature had been established, all of his future choices were predetermined.
This is a logical conclusion.
Which is why the phrase "hardened Pharaoh's heart" is so puzzling. Did God change Pharaoh's nature, and cause him to make choices that he wouldn't have made otherwise? Or did this have no effect on Pharaoh's decisions at all?
Chaos, if I happen to have watched "Casablanca" and know how it will go all the way to the end (which I do), does that mean I wrote the script, directed the actors and did the editing? No. In fact, even the actors and actresses and the people involved in the production no doubt took some liberties at times with lines and staging and it was decided to allow for the changes. Michael Curtiz was the director...there were six different writers involved in the screenplay. It was made years before I was born.
It is entirely possible that God knew that if Pharaoh kept being subject to plagues, then promised to free the Jews, then went back on his word and then had more plagues fall upon Egypt that Pharaoh would harden his heart and vow to never give in?
The conservation of the miraculous is a concept held by most Christians that God never intervenes miraculously in the material world except to assure his greater Will be done. Human nature shows us that kind acts often cause the rude to become more rude and the evil even more evil. I cannot say that God directly intervened to miraculously harden Pharaoh's heart for sure, but it seems that He did. However, Pharaoh had been deceitful, hateful and had demonstrated a hard heart before this passage is reached in the narrative. As Creator of all things, God has the right to do as He chooses. If He chooses to cast a hardened and cruel heart in stone, He has that right.
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. " - line from the song, below...
Rush, three gifted and technically proficient musicians who make great music with sometime cryptic or preachy lyrics, in a typical performance of the song, Free Will. I wonder if perhaps they have some sympathies with the views of Aleister Crowley. Thelema as a religious point of view, perhaps? The theme, simplified, is to do as you will according to your own law. Crowley, a proponent of Magick, and his followers are in no way related to what I refer to as free will.
I am going on the premise that you are not advocating that cult-styled meaning of free will?
I mean that man has the ability to decide what course to take. The intersection of your decisions and my decisions and the decisions of others, in association with the ordinary events of life, determine what will happen to us. It is entirely unlikely that God will intervene often, if at all, other than by inspiring Christians to follow the will of God expressed to them. Godly principles may cause us to give to someone in need and this gift may wind up saving their job, their marriage, even their life? But if we ignore the urge to act, a life may be limited or lost.
I am saying God knows what course we will take, as he has seen the end of the movie, so to speak. That does NOT mean He writes your lines for you or puts down the little "X" mark on the stage so you know where to stand. It is not a normal situation in the Bible when God is seen as causing a person to take a course of action. He gives us the Laws and advice about wise courses of action in general aka Biblical Principles, He asks us to pray and ask for things and He will give you ideas when you pray if you build a relationship. It is a subtle thing
You also said:
God made you with free will. If you cannot choose whether or not to sin, you are a robot not a man!
Aren't there people in Heaven who have free will but who choose not to sin? So it's possible for people like that to exist.
People in Heaven, as they exist now, are not in the material world. They are not in their natural bodies and have no natural urges or desires. They have been freed from their temporal existence. So once a believer passes from death to life, he has a new body with no sin nature and is in the presence of God. We no longer wish to sin in this new state. With no urge to sin and no influence from the world or any demon spirits or evil men, they do not exist in the same world that we do.
Jesus Christ was born a man, but He did not WANT to sin, in fact He detested sin and was completely surrendered to the Father's Will. Therefore there was one man who did live and chose not to sin and He, Jesus Christ, was able to therefore free us from the penalty of sin by taking the penalty for us.
And if it's possible for people like that to exist, then it's possible for God to create only people like that, without accidentally creating other people who would choose to sin.
But beings you describe have left the material, temporal world and their old bodies and lusts behind, so they cannot be put into a temporal context. Furthermore, only those who chose to trust Christ and become "new creatures" go on to be in the presence of God after death. So even becoming a sinless eternal supernatural saint after death involves a choice in this life in this world first.
I was an adult before I become a believer. I had a body and a soul, but my spirit was dead in sins and doomed for destruction, and this I had inherited down from Adam. I have detailed much of my life story before, but this drug/drink/foul-mouthed party animal known as "The Caveman" became instantly different the very moment I believed in Christ. For the first time in my life I felt peace inside. But I didn't know I had lacked it until I received it from God. I could tell that something was very different. My wants changed. There was a new me inside. Yet I had the same brain and experiences and job and apartment and wife and child and vehicles. I had not been "taken over" by a foreign entity. I was still running the same brain.
From being a self-centered party animal considering unburdening some responsibilities and loving me some more me, I found myself wanting to read the Bible and soon I wanted to model my life after the principles in the New Testament. I volunteered for ministry, quit the band and the drugs and drinking and joined the choir. I was me, but I was a new creature because I had been born again!
You Must Be Born Again
2 Corinthians 5:16-18
So take another look at Fred Phelps: He's basically saying "God deliberately creates people that he hates, for the sole purpose of punishing them." That's a vile thing to say, but it doesn't become any less vile if you dress it up in polite language and tone down the theatrics.
Fred Phelps again? Shall I quote Charles Manson? The one part of your questions is your ridiculous insistence that Fred Phelps is either a Christian or in any way applicable to this discussion. It is not worthy of you. Charles Manson might say, " Pain's not bad, it's good. It teaches you things. I understand that."
(That said, some Christians reject that belief in favor of Universalism; "God only creates people who will be saved". That seems reasonable, but it still gets stuck trying to explain why suffering exists.)
Suffering exists because people sin. Sin was not part of the original design of the Universe. But if God did not give mankind the ability to choose, then we would be robots. I, for one, would not care for an existence as an automaton.
Keep in mind that God put mankind in charge of the entire world, and when Adam and Eve sinned, the violation was applied to the entire world and not just them. Now allow me to present an article that I believe is appropriate.
Why Christians have a better explanation of the world than secular humanists
Published: 14 May 2013 (GMT+10)
AAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnnd a blurb or two to end. Just because.
The Mystery of Noah's Flood
The movie that needs to be made and promoted. This will answer so many questions from Darwinists about the Flood and for Christians as well. So many uninformed people believe the lies taught in schools because nobody is talk to think critically and examine evidence carefully. Once you see all the evidence from science, without even including the Bible, the overwhelming evidence for a world-wide flood and absolutely designed organisms is overwhelming!!!
Aaron Judkins has a new website!
I have his "regular" website on my links list.