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Wednesday, May 15, 2013

Reply to Chaos Engineer and Why Christians have a better explanation of the world than secular humanists

I made a post that Chaos Engineer was inspired to question:

ANTI-SCIENCE DARWINISTS CANNOT EVEN GIVE A REASON FOR REASONING! The mind boggles at the hilarity of Darwinist "thought" that denies our ability to actually think for ourselves!


and made my answers to his points, glad to have a reasoned argument presented!


Evolution versus Creation. Examining Hyper-Calvinism from a commenter's post. Conceptualizing the differences. Chaos Engineer Edition.


So Chaos Engineer had another set of questions and statements worth making public.  Now my promised answers for Chaos, with his comments in black and mine in normal font:

Chaos-Engineer has left a new comment on your post "Evolution versus Creation. Examining Hyper-Calvin...":

Sorry to get back to you so late...

I'd like to look at this bit that you wrote in more detail:

But the truth is that Pharaoh was given the chance to decide to free the Jews. God did not force him to have a hardened heart. But once Pharaoh deliberately hardened his heart after already experiencing five plagues on his people (and not on the Jews), God then more or less made the condition permanent after the sixth plague so that His power could be demonstrated to Egypt and all peoples for all time.

Under the naive definition of "Free Will", Pharaoh was making choices freely, which means that he could have made a different choice at any time. But according to the text, God already knew with complete certainty what choices he'd make - so Pharaoh couldn't have made a different choice.


I see no straight logical line here.   We have Pharaoh>Egypt>Moses.   God is not causing Pharaoh to say or do anything.   Moses and Aaron stated that the actual situation was God>Pharaoh>Egypt>Moses and actually used His spokesmen to obey chain of command and ask that Pharaoh allow the (unjustly) enslaved Jews to go free.   Pharaoh would not acknowledge the superiority of God despite the promised plagues ALWAYS happening just as predicted.   Pharaoh was not helpless, he was egotistical and obstinate and deceptive.

To make sense of this, I'd need to use a better definition of "Free Will". I might say that it means that Pharaoh was "acting according to his nature, with no outside interference". Once Pharaoh's nature had been established, all of his future choices were predetermined.


This is a logical conclusion.

Which is why the phrase "hardened Pharaoh's heart" is so puzzling. Did God change Pharaoh's nature, and cause him to make choices that he wouldn't have made otherwise? Or did this have no effect on Pharaoh's decisions at all?


Chaos, if I happen to have watched "Casablanca" and know how it will go all the way to the end (which I do), does that mean I wrote the script, directed the actors and did the editing?  No.  In fact, even the actors and actresses and the people involved in the production no doubt took some liberties at times with lines and staging and it was decided to allow for the changes.   Michael Curtiz was the director...there were six different writers involved in the screenplay.  It was made years before I was born.  


It is entirely possible that God knew that if Pharaoh kept being subject to plagues, then promised to free the Jews, then went back on his word and then had more plagues fall upon Egypt that Pharaoh would harden his heart and vow to never give in?


The conservation of the miraculous is a concept held by most Christians that God never intervenes miraculously in the material world except to assure his greater Will be done.  Human nature shows us that kind acts often cause the rude to become more rude and the evil even more evil.   I cannot say that God directly intervened to miraculously harden Pharaoh's heart for sure, but it seems that He did.   However, Pharaoh had been deceitful, hateful and had demonstrated a hard heart before this passage is reached in the narrative.  As Creator of all things, God has the right to do as He chooses.   If He chooses to cast a hardened and cruel heart in stone, He has that right.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. " - line from the song, below...




Rush, three gifted and technically proficient musicians who make great music with sometime cryptic or preachy lyrics, in a typical performance of the song, Free Will.  I wonder if perhaps they have some sympathies with the views of Aleister Crowley.  Thelema as a religious point of view, perhaps?  The theme, simplified, is to do as you will according to your own law.  Crowley, a proponent of Magick, and his followers are in no way related to what I refer to as free will.

I am going on the premise that you are not advocating that cult-styled meaning of free will?

I mean that man has the ability to decide what course to take.  The intersection of your decisions and my decisions and the decisions of others, in association with the ordinary events of life, determine what will happen to us.   It is entirely unlikely that God will intervene often, if at all, other than by inspiring Christians to follow the will of God expressed to them.   Godly principles may cause us to give to someone in need and this gift may wind up saving their job, their marriage, even their life?  But if we ignore the urge to act, a life may be limited or lost.


I am saying God knows what course we will take, as he has seen the end of the movie, so to speak.  That does NOT mean He writes your lines for you or puts down the little "X" mark on the stage so you know where to stand.  It is not a normal situation in the Bible when God is seen as causing a person to take a course of action. He gives us the Laws and advice about wise courses of action in general aka Biblical Principles,   He asks us to pray and ask for things and He will give you ideas when you pray if you build a relationship.   It is a subtle thing

You also said:

God made you with free will. If you cannot choose whether or not to sin, you are a robot not a man!

Aren't there people in Heaven who have free will but who choose not to sin? So it's possible for people like that to exist.


People in Heaven, as they exist now, are not in the material world.   They are not in their natural bodies and have no natural urges or desires.   They have been freed from their temporal existence.  So once a believer passes from death to life, he has a new body with no sin nature and is in the presence of God.   We no longer wish to sin in this new state.   With no urge to sin and no influence from the world or any demon spirits or evil men, they do not exist in the same world that we do.  

Jesus Christ was born a man, but He did not WANT to sin, in fact He detested sin and was completely surrendered to the Father's Will.   Therefore there was one man who did live and chose not to sin and He, Jesus Christ, was able to therefore free us from the penalty of sin by taking the penalty for us. 

And if it's possible for people like that to exist, then it's possible for God to create only people like that, without accidentally creating other people who would choose to sin.


But beings you describe have left the material, temporal world and their old bodies and lusts behind, so they cannot be put into a temporal context.  Furthermore, only those who chose to trust Christ and become "new creatures" go on to be in the presence of God after death.  So even becoming a sinless eternal supernatural saint after death involves a choice in this life in this world first.

I was an adult before I become a believer.  I had a body and a soul, but my spirit was dead in sins and doomed for destruction, and this I had inherited down from Adam.   I have detailed much of my life story before, but this drug/drink/foul-mouthed party animal known as "The Caveman" became instantly different the very moment I believed in Christ.   For the first time in my life I felt peace inside.  But I didn't know I had lacked it until I received it from God.  I could tell that something was very different.  My wants changed.   There was a new me inside.   Yet I had the same brain and experiences and job and apartment and wife and child and vehicles.  I had not been "taken over" by a foreign entity.  I was still running the same brain.  

From being a self-centered party animal considering unburdening some responsibilities and loving me some more me, I found myself wanting to read the Bible and soon I wanted to model my life after the principles in the New Testament.   I volunteered for ministry, quit the band and the drugs and drinking and joined the choir.   I was me, but I was a new creature because I had been born again!

John 3:1-3

English Standard Version (ESV)

You Must Be Born Again

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

and 

2 Corinthians 5:16-18

English Standard Version (ESV)
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

So take another look at Fred Phelps: He's basically saying "God deliberately creates people that he hates, for the sole purpose of punishing them." That's a vile thing to say, but it doesn't become any less vile if you dress it up in polite language and tone down the theatrics.


Fred Phelps again?   Shall I quote Charles Manson?   The one part of your questions is your ridiculous insistence that Fred Phelps is either a Christian or in any way applicable to this discussion.  It is not worthy of you.  Charles Manson might say, " Pain's not bad, it's good. It teaches you things. I understand that."

(That said, some Christians reject that belief in favor of Universalism; "God only creates people who will be saved". That seems reasonable, but it still gets stuck trying to explain why suffering exists.) 


Suffering exists because people sin.   Sin was not part of the original design of the Universe.  But if God did not give mankind the ability to choose, then we would be robots.   I, for one, would not care for an existence as an automaton.    

Keep in mind that God put mankind in charge of the entire world, and when Adam and Eve sinned, the violation was applied to the entire world and not just them.  Now allow me to present an article that I believe is appropriate.


Biblical Creation—Truly, a Theory of Everything (ToE)


Why Christians have a better explanation of the world than secular humanists

Published: 14 May 2013 (GMT+10)

NASA, ESA, Hubble Heritage (STScI/AURA)-ESA/Hubble Collaboration
Do we Christians who accept the biblical account of creation know how blessed we are? We have something (actually many things) that no other group in the world have, a theory of everything, something that humanism has long sought. This is not the same as claiming we know everything, but we do have a framework within which everything in this universe; personal, physical and spiritual, fits. Most of us when assembling a jigsaw puzzle begin with the easy or obvious parts, the corners and edges with the straight sides. Once this is done, it just becomes so much easier to fit the other pieces and to spot pieces that have been mixed in from other puzzles. The Bible is like this; it gives us an overall framework of interpretation of the world around us, and allows us to fit all the pieces that come our way into that framework. All the big questions (pieces of the overall puzzle)—Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? Why is the world as it is, socially and physically?—find a comfortable fit within this framework. Even other political, economic and scientific facts fit perfectly into the ‘big picture’ given us by God in the Scriptures.
The framework makes sense of why the world and universe has the appearance of design.
Of course, most importantly; the works, teachings, beliefs and person of the One we are called on to believe in for salvation, Jesus Christ; make perfect sense once we accept the plain meaning of Genesis. The reason for this cursed world, Christ’s physical incarnation, life, death, resurrection and future restoration of all things only make sense (perfect sense), if Genesis is true history. Genesis is a major part of the biblical theory of everything; the entire outside frame of our puzzle if you like, with Christ at the centre.
The framework makes sense of why the world and universe has the appearance of design; from the clocklike mechanism of our solar system, to the gears, motor and propeller of the bacterial flagellum—because they were made by the Master Designer—‘The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork’ (Psalm 19:1). The reason that all life arises from incredibly complex specifying information in the DNA molecule is that, ‘In the beginning was the Word (logos) … all things were made by Him’ (John 1:1,3). It makes sense of why all social and political systems based on the idea of the perfectibility of mankind (if only … ) are doomed to fail, ‘for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’, (Rom 3:23). The biblical history of the Flood fits wonderfully a world of sedimentary rock, fossils, mountains and canyons. They are phenomena we should expect to find because the Bible is true.
Wikimedia commons/Dschwen
A substantial biblical worldview is the reason why the West attained the level of human opportunity, freedoms, rights, privileges and institutions to which the whole world has aspired over the past couple of hundred years. GK Chesterton said that ‘The great and grave changes in our political civilization all belonged to the early nineteenth century, not to the later. They belonged to the black and white epoch when men believed fixedly in Toryism, in Protestantism, in Calvinism, in Reform, and not unfrequently in Revolution.1 A fact that even many non-Christians like the British Jewish conservative commentator, Melanie Phillips recognise, ‘Far from minorities being offended, they should acknowledge that the institutions and values which make Britain so desirable to live in are rooted in Christianity.’2 How ironic when people recognise the fruits of Christianity, but deny its roots set firmly in Genesis. They have a broken worldview.
Little wonder that as the attack on the foundations of Christian belief intensifies in the West, the wheels are rapidly coming off.
Little wonder that as the attack on the foundations of Christian belief intensifies in the West, the wheels are rapidly coming off. Not that these societies were ever perfect or free of evil and hypocrisy. But there was enough of a critical mass of Christian belief at the foundation of many of the great western countries, to enable a quality and value of life for the majority of people, unheard of in human history. In a world deluded by the myth of multi-culturalism (i.e. the politically-correct ‘multiculturalism’ in vogue in the west), the idea that all cultures and beliefs systems are equally valid, such assertions are regarded as out of bounds.3 But this is the truth.
The milestones of Western law like the Magna Carta, Lex Rex and the American Declaration of Independence were overtly Christian in their authorship, ideology and wording and their application by the masses dependent on the degree of Christian permeation of the culture. Most of the greatest schools and universities in the west began as Christian institutions with Christian goals. It is even acknowledged by secular philosophers of science, that modern science itself was born within the context of Christian belief in a rational God and man made in His image with a purpose and ability to seek out His ‘handywork’. How ironic that many of the ‘fathers’ of various fields of science now used to discredit biblical belief, were Christians that accepted the biblical account of creation.4 The West worked because of a pervasive biblical framework amongst the broader populace. This is why democracy cannot just be transplanted into any culture.
Wikimedia
John Calvin (1509–1564).
Within this framework the world makes sense on a personal level as well. Even when natural or moral evil, trials ‘common to man’, intrude into our lives, as Christians we need never be caught unawares; our faith need never be demolished. The Bible prepares us for these things firstly by tracing them to the source, Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God when tempted by Satan back in Eden. This knowledge helps us be ‘cast down, but not destroyed’ when trials enter our lives, no matter how heart-breaking.
As well as much pain in the world, there is also much beauty. The Bible explains why the beauty of the beheld—whether flower or face, sonnet or sonata—is so fit for the eye and ear of the beholder. It is because we are made in the image of the Creator, who Himself loves beauty and created the universe primarily for the benefit of Man, the federal head of creation.
Meanwhile physicists who believe in an evolutionary origin, have sought to put together an overarching ‘Theory of Everything’ (ToE), e.g., as described in Steven Weinberg’s (1993) bookDreams of a Final Theory. The goal of such a theory would be to fully explain and link together all known physical phenomena, being able to predict the outcome, at least theoretically, of any physics experiment.5
As scientific naturalism, the rule of the game for science today, only recognises matter and natural law, such a quest is a search for a unifying principle that indeed explains allphenomena. Evolutionists often claim or like to believe that they have a ‘theory of everything’, except when they don’t. They proclaim that evolution accounts for everything from the Big Bang to molecular biologists. Evolutionary explanations are given for all observed physical and behavioural phenomena, even phenomena that are the antithesis or contradictory of each other.6 But when challenged about the un-scientific assumption of a-biogenesis, that in their scheme of things, life must have come from non-life, they deny that this is part of the theory of evolution. They are unable to give evidence of how mutations gave rise to the vast amount of genetic information in all organisms; from the humble beginnings of the so-called ‘simple’ organism from which all life is supposed to have arisen to complex organisms such as men and mice. The supple explanation of evolution, far from explaining everything, is a game of smoke and mirrors, an illusion.
Ernest Normand (1859–1923).
King John of England signs Magna Carta.
And in order to protect their tottering theory from attack, they resort to bullying and ridicule to try to drive defenders of biblical creation from the culture and classrooms of the world. Although dominant, it is an insecure faith today.
Describing his conversion from scepticism to a Christian view of the world, Chesterton wrote— ‘And then followed an experience impossible to describe. It was as if I had been blundering about since my birth with two huge and unmanageable machines, of different shapes and without apparent connection—the world and the Christian tradition. I had found this hole in the world: the fact that one must somehow find a way of loving the world without trusting it; somehow one must love the world without being worldly. I found this projecting feature of Christian theology, like a sort of hard spike, the dogmatic insistence that God was personal, and had made a world separate from Himself. The spike of dogma fitted exactly into the hole in the world—it had evidently been meant to go there—and then the strange thing began to happen. When once these two parts of the two machines had come together, one after another, all the other parts fitted and fell in with an eerie exactitude. I could hear bolt after bolt over all the machinery falling into its place with a kind of click of relief. Having got one part right, all the other parts were repeating that rectitude, as clock after clock strikes noon. Instinct after instinct was answered by doctrine after doctrine. Or, to vary the metaphor, I was like one who had advanced into a hostile country to take one high fortress. And when that fort had fallen the whole country surrendered and turned solid behind me.’7
Christians that take God at His word from the very first verse of the Bible, have a sure ‘theory of everything’. We are blessed indeed. No wonder Jesus urged His disciples to ‘abide’8 in Him. It is the safest place to be.

Related Articles

References

  1. Chesterton, G. K. (2009-06-01). Orthodoxy (Moody Classics) (Kindle Locations 1882–1883). Moody Publishers. Kindle Edition. Return to text.
  2. Don’t let the killjoys ruin this Christmas. Her blog on 24 December 2012. www.melaniephillips.comReturn to text.
  3. See my article on this subject at creation.com/worldview-supremacyReturn to text.
  4. The creationist basis for modern science, creation.com/the-creationist-basis-for-modern-scienceReturn to text.
  5. Weinberg S., Dreams of a final theory, Random House, New York, 1993. Return to text.
  6.  creation.com/darwinian-explanations-are-too-flexible-to-be-usefulReturn to text.
  7. Chesterton, G. K. (2009-06-01). Orthodoxy (Moody Classics) (Kindle Locations 1402–1412). Moody Publishers. Kindle Edition. Return to text.
  8. John 15:4–7Return to text.

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AAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnnd a blurb or two to end.  Just because.


The Mystery of Noah's Flood

The movie that needs to be made and promoted.  This will answer so many questions from Darwinists about the Flood and for Christians as well.   So many uninformed people believe the lies taught in schools because nobody is talk to think critically and examine evidence carefully.   Once you see all the evidence from science, without even including the Bible, the overwhelming evidence for a world-wide flood and absolutely designed organisms is overwhelming!!!


Aaron Judkins has a new website!


I have his "regular" website on my links list.


4 comments:

highboy said...

Yeah Chaos! No what? Can you pick up, what radar is puttin' down?

radar said...

I am not sure if Chaos is just busy or not sure what to say next? It is the work week and I may not post again until tonight or tomorrow. Work to feed and clothe the family trumps blogging.

I have done my best to do justice to the questions and assertions of CE because he is actually one commenter among the Darwinists who has been making intelligent questions and submitting them, rather than the commonplace "Nyuh-uh!" they usually supply.

Anonymous said...

It's funny, the logic flaws in Radar's arguments (and the ones he pastes here) are generally quite apparent. The problem is more the volume of them. When other people refute them one by one, Radar claims that other people are "desperate" for posting in high volume.

Perhaps a better way of tackling the points one by one can be found. In that context, Radar has never done well. He relies on quickly throwing other issues into a conversation or moving on to the next topic, then proclaiming victory weeks or months later.

radar said...

Sigh. Another fact-free comment:

Anonymous said...
It's funny, the logic flaws in Radar's arguments (and the ones he pastes here) are generally quite apparent.


For instance? I use sound logic and do not resort to fake fallacies like Darwinists often do.

The problem is more the volume of them. When other people refute them one by one, Radar claims that other people are "desperate" for posting in high volume.

I had respect for Chaos as he concentrated on a just a couple of key points and made intelligent comments worthy of reply. You have not yet done so...

Perhaps a better way of tackling the points one by one can be found. In that context, Radar has never done well. He relies on quickly throwing other issues into a conversation or moving on to the next topic, then proclaiming victory weeks or months later.

Well, you are lying now, which is perhaps the number one fallacy of all time. I've answered every single valid question. You will notice my last post addressed the idea that mammals and birds are not found with dinosaurs. They are, but Darwinists hide the evidence.

I have obliterated the bad arguments of Darwinists against the LOT and LOB, challenged them to explain irreducibly complex designs and the information question. In fact I have a link to a set of blogs with comments about information, in which I give Darwinist every chance to come up with a natural source for information and they fail miserably.

They fail to give any evidence at all to support any challenge to the LOB. It is all conjecture, but when we look at the actual components of life they cannot exist in nature at all.

I use the LOT to dispel the Big Bang myth. The LOT says nothing is being created in the natural world, so a singularity could not *poof* into existence by natural means. Darwinists resort to miracles without a capable miracle source. Creationists point to the Transcendent and Supernatural God as Creator. Not THAT is logical.

Darwinists must depend on multiple billions of miracles without sources to support their faith. I think the discoveries have put Darwinism on life support and it would die off if not artificially kept alive. IF students were given ALL the evidence, then instead of two thirds of the world believing in some form of Creator, it would be everybody.

I've heard the stories of people destroying evidence with crowbars, dumping fossils into the oceans, putting them in storage and forbidding them to be accessed. Neanderthal skulls being altered and the evidence of their intelligence and art being hidden. People working on digs being forced to sign non-disclosure paperwork and then no one ever hears of the fossils found.

How many museums display the birds and mammals found with dinosaurs, or admit to sites where sea and land creatures are all buried together? I expect Darwinists to lie and hide evidence because I have been around long enough to have seen the evidence. The religion of Darwinism makes for desperate disciples these days.