the weakest and least inspiring kind of faith?
A commenter wrote:
"Radar, though I am not myself a man of faith I retain great respect for people who are commited to their faith; who find strength and wisdom in that faith. But I have to say I've always found the kind of faith you are expressing here on your blog to be the weakest, least inspiring kind."
Well, I must have a faith you can hardly bring yourself to respect at all. Let's find out why?
"How frail and on what shaky foundations rests a faith that is afraid of objective examination; that allows for no mystery, just a dry, colourless literalism. Clinging to literalism backs one into a corner, forcing one to adopt all kinds of denials and excersises in logical contortionism to explain away the contradictions and absurdities produced by a literal approach to the text."
So you want your truths to have mystery or they are of no value? I am guessing that you are not into sky-jumping, then, or if you are you won't be for long. Wouldn't an air of mystery as to whether your parachute was packed properly add to the fun? Perhaps you should seek out a restaurant that has been closed down for unclean conditions a few times previously, since the possibility of ingesting e-coli would add to your dining experience.
Hmmm, objective examination? I doubt if any faith has undergone more thorough examination, nor any book taken more intense scrutiny, than Christianity and the Bible, respectively. Whereas you are going for death by adjective, in fact a literal interpretation of the scriptures was preached by Jesus, adhered to by the Apostles and has been the basis for most of the great men of the Christian faith down through the ages. Ask Martin Luther or John Wesley or Matthew Henry whether they were literalists. Oh, you can't because they are dead? Well, when I get to heaven I will ask them for you. Grins.
Logical contortions are the friend of modern liberal bible criticism, trying to find ways to make the Bible less that what it is. Thousands of years after the fact, liberal scholars try to find new authors for the books, or change the likely dates the books were written and other such contortions. Sure, you think that the descriptions of dinosaurs in the Bible are absurdities, fine. Contradictions? Is the following a contradiction? (Proverbs 23:4 & 5):
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him
Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes."
I am a Bible literalist. No one is forcing anyone else to believe this way. But this is a common thing among Christians, to believe that the Bible is true. In fact, if you don't, I wonder how you determine which parts to believe and which parts to throw out. And of course God has to either be lying or mistaken in that He inspired words such as these in II Timothy 3:16:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"
ALL scripture, when you study it carefully, means, well, ALL SCRIPTURE! No small parts of it are to be ignored or considered extraneous.
"Myth is not a bad word, Radar. Myths can contain many truths, and are not to be sniffed at for being symbolically, rather than literally, true. I no longer believe in the literal magic of the Bible, but I still find inspiriation of much of what it has to say, especially the teachings of Jesus. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." '
Now, here is an interesting thing. Using the Bible, which you claim is unreliable, in order to make your point? You take that passage from I Corinthians 13:11. Let me post a bit more of it...verses 8 through 13.
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
Does this mean that knowledge is childish? Has that which is perfect already come? Do you really understand what this verse means? It was not spoken by Jesus, but rather written by Paul as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Note that in the end when childish things are put away one is left with faith, hope and love. So faith is not a childish thing.
My personal belief is that if you accept the Bible as a good book that has good stuff in it, like the sayings of Aristotle, the literature of Mark Twain, the poetry of Robert Frost, then you will glean some good from it. I will not argue with that. But you will not get much benefit from the Bible unless you take it for what it claims to be, the Word of God. No more than you will from reading Robinson Crusoe.
Peter writes this in II Peter 1:21 -
"for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
Paul explained that he wrote by inspiration of God in Ephesians 3:3-5 -
"how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:"
My "weak and uninspiring" faith has caused me to abandon a self-centered hedonistic lifestyle and devote a great deal of time and effort to help others. My wife and I give money and time and energy to the cause of Christ. We work in church ministries. We pray for others. I don't think that we are all that special, we are simply believers. It is the Spirit of God in us that has inspired us to give more than lip service to our faith. One of my adult sons is in the military, but the one who is not gives part of his time to church service, working in one of the ministries. My oldest daughter and my son-in-law do the same at a different church. All of us believe that the Bible is literally true.
In fact, my experience has been that there are millions of Christians who believe the Bible is literally true. For those who do not, I do wonder how you decide which parts to depend upon. Can you trust the part where if you call upon Jesus and believe with your heart you will be saved? Are you sure? How about the part where Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? Or when Moses raised his staff and the Red Sea parted? The part where David slew Goliath with one well-slung stone? Where do you quit believing and start winking and nodding?
I believe the Bible is literally true. I believe God created the Universe and all within it. I believe Jesus came to earth to provide the answer to sin and suffering and the way to life with God in eternity. I believe the Bible. I find it to be incredibly rich in wisdom, historical information and especially a wonderful way to hear from God.
If you don't believe in a Creator God and that the Bible is true, well, I would say that you have "mythed the boat"!
"Radar, though I am not myself a man of faith I retain great respect for people who are commited to their faith; who find strength and wisdom in that faith. But I have to say I've always found the kind of faith you are expressing here on your blog to be the weakest, least inspiring kind."
Well, I must have a faith you can hardly bring yourself to respect at all. Let's find out why?
"How frail and on what shaky foundations rests a faith that is afraid of objective examination; that allows for no mystery, just a dry, colourless literalism. Clinging to literalism backs one into a corner, forcing one to adopt all kinds of denials and excersises in logical contortionism to explain away the contradictions and absurdities produced by a literal approach to the text."
So you want your truths to have mystery or they are of no value? I am guessing that you are not into sky-jumping, then, or if you are you won't be for long. Wouldn't an air of mystery as to whether your parachute was packed properly add to the fun? Perhaps you should seek out a restaurant that has been closed down for unclean conditions a few times previously, since the possibility of ingesting e-coli would add to your dining experience.
Hmmm, objective examination? I doubt if any faith has undergone more thorough examination, nor any book taken more intense scrutiny, than Christianity and the Bible, respectively. Whereas you are going for death by adjective, in fact a literal interpretation of the scriptures was preached by Jesus, adhered to by the Apostles and has been the basis for most of the great men of the Christian faith down through the ages. Ask Martin Luther or John Wesley or Matthew Henry whether they were literalists. Oh, you can't because they are dead? Well, when I get to heaven I will ask them for you. Grins.
Logical contortions are the friend of modern liberal bible criticism, trying to find ways to make the Bible less that what it is. Thousands of years after the fact, liberal scholars try to find new authors for the books, or change the likely dates the books were written and other such contortions. Sure, you think that the descriptions of dinosaurs in the Bible are absurdities, fine. Contradictions? Is the following a contradiction? (Proverbs 23:4 & 5):
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him
Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes."
I am a Bible literalist. No one is forcing anyone else to believe this way. But this is a common thing among Christians, to believe that the Bible is true. In fact, if you don't, I wonder how you determine which parts to believe and which parts to throw out. And of course God has to either be lying or mistaken in that He inspired words such as these in II Timothy 3:16:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"
ALL scripture, when you study it carefully, means, well, ALL SCRIPTURE! No small parts of it are to be ignored or considered extraneous.
"Myth is not a bad word, Radar. Myths can contain many truths, and are not to be sniffed at for being symbolically, rather than literally, true. I no longer believe in the literal magic of the Bible, but I still find inspiriation of much of what it has to say, especially the teachings of Jesus. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." '
Now, here is an interesting thing. Using the Bible, which you claim is unreliable, in order to make your point? You take that passage from I Corinthians 13:11. Let me post a bit more of it...verses 8 through 13.
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
Does this mean that knowledge is childish? Has that which is perfect already come? Do you really understand what this verse means? It was not spoken by Jesus, but rather written by Paul as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Note that in the end when childish things are put away one is left with faith, hope and love. So faith is not a childish thing.
My personal belief is that if you accept the Bible as a good book that has good stuff in it, like the sayings of Aristotle, the literature of Mark Twain, the poetry of Robert Frost, then you will glean some good from it. I will not argue with that. But you will not get much benefit from the Bible unless you take it for what it claims to be, the Word of God. No more than you will from reading Robinson Crusoe.
Peter writes this in II Peter 1:21 -
"for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
Paul explained that he wrote by inspiration of God in Ephesians 3:3-5 -
"how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:"
My "weak and uninspiring" faith has caused me to abandon a self-centered hedonistic lifestyle and devote a great deal of time and effort to help others. My wife and I give money and time and energy to the cause of Christ. We work in church ministries. We pray for others. I don't think that we are all that special, we are simply believers. It is the Spirit of God in us that has inspired us to give more than lip service to our faith. One of my adult sons is in the military, but the one who is not gives part of his time to church service, working in one of the ministries. My oldest daughter and my son-in-law do the same at a different church. All of us believe that the Bible is literally true.
In fact, my experience has been that there are millions of Christians who believe the Bible is literally true. For those who do not, I do wonder how you decide which parts to depend upon. Can you trust the part where if you call upon Jesus and believe with your heart you will be saved? Are you sure? How about the part where Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead? Or when Moses raised his staff and the Red Sea parted? The part where David slew Goliath with one well-slung stone? Where do you quit believing and start winking and nodding?
I believe the Bible is literally true. I believe God created the Universe and all within it. I believe Jesus came to earth to provide the answer to sin and suffering and the way to life with God in eternity. I believe the Bible. I find it to be incredibly rich in wisdom, historical information and especially a wonderful way to hear from God.
If you don't believe in a Creator God and that the Bible is true, well, I would say that you have "mythed the boat"!