Hawkeye catches an Atheist Humbug and dissects it!
Hawkeye and Highboy do a great deal of commenting on my blog but usually when I blog using comments I present those who disagree with me. Today I am posting what Hawkeye said in response to the Atheism Humbug post. His post is actually from the comments thread verbatim, and he begins with a question posed by creeper:
"When did science - including as practiced by the Christian scientists of centuries past in that list you parade around once in a while - ever "include the supernatural element"? Ever?"
Enter Hawkeye in Technicolor:
I think you miss the point. It's not so much that scientists, including Christian scientists, used a "supernatural element" in their experiments -- as if they could summon angels or demons to participate in their human venture. Rather, it is that the scientists who performed those experiments believed in a supernatural God and were seeking to understand the supernatural laws which govern His creation.
For example, Sir Isaac Newton viewed gravity as a "supernatural" force that was simply inconceivable. He said: "Tis inconceivable that inanimate brute matter should (without the mediation of something else which is not material) operate upon & affect other matter without mutual contact."
Though he is better known for his love of science, the Bible was Sir Isaac Newton's greatest passion. He devoted more time to the study of Scripture than to science, and he said, "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." He spent a great deal of time trying to discover hidden messages within the Bible. He looked for clues to world around him in the Word of God.
Newton saw God as the masterful creator whose existence could not be denied in the face of the grandeur of all creation. He warned against using the law of gravity to view the universe as a mere machine, like a great clock. He said: "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being... This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called "Lord God" παντοκρατωρ [pantokratōr], or "Universal Ruler"... The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, [and] absolutely perfect."
In this regard, Newton is not unlike many other early scientists who were seeking to understand how God has ordered His universe. The Bible portrays God as the one who brings order to the universe. In the beginning there was nothing but chaos. "The earth was without form and [there was nothing but a] void." There was no light, because "darkness was upon the face of the deep [space]." So what does God do? God creates light and separates light from darkness. He creates the earth. He separates water from dry land. He creates plants and animals "according to their own kinds". Finally He creates humans.
According to the Bible, God makes the sun to rise and set each day. He brings the seasons every year. He makes the snow to fall, and plants to grow. Genesis 8:22 says: "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease." He provides a sun for the day and a moon for the night. He puts the stars in their place. God brings order to the universe.
It is only because God brings order and regularity to the universe, that science could be born. Science depends on the fact that there are regularities in the world. Without regularities, there would ultimately be nothing to study. Scientists depend not only on the regularities with which they are already familiar, but they also postulate that still more regularities will be found in areas that they have yet to investigate.
When these regularities are discovered, measured, quantified and determined to be reproducible in the laboratory, they are defined as "laws". Thus, we have Newton's laws, Boyle's law, Dalton's law, Mendel's laws, Kirchhoff's laws, etc. What you and many others refer to as "natural laws", are in fact the "scientific laws" that early scientists believed were established by God to bring order His universe.
The fact that you call them "natural laws" suggests that you have taken them away from God and turned them over to nature. You have taken them from the Creator and turned them over to the creation. That is what the author means when he says: "Naturalists take title to the deed of science without making proper payment."
Why did the early scientists believe that God established all these laws? Quite frankly, it is because these laws reveal the fingerprint of God Himself. They bear His attributes. Allow me to explain...
Scientists think of laws as universal in time and space. That is to say, that if it is really a "law" that is correctly formulated and qualified, then it holds true for "all places" and "all times". In other words, it is "omnipresent" and "eternal". The classic terms of omnipresence (in all places) and eternity (at all times) are traditionally attributed to God.
Other divine attributes belong to scientific laws. If a law holds for all times, we must presume that it will be the same law throughout all time. The law does not change with time. Therefore it is unchangeable or "immutable". In Malachi 3:6 God says: "For I the LORD do not change."
Next, scientific laws are basically ideas. We do not literally see a law, but only the effects of the law on the material world. The law is essentially immaterial and invisible, but is known through its effects. Likewise, God is essentially immaterial and invisible, but is known through His acts in the world.
Finally, real scientific laws (as opposed to scientists’ approximations of them) are also absolutely, infallibly true. Truthfulness is another attribute of God.
The Bible tells us that the hand of God can be found by an examination of His handiwork: "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made" (Romans 1:19-20a).
The Bible also tells us that some people absolutely refuse to accept the truth and "worship" the creation rather than the Creator: "they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools... because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (Romans 1:21b-22,25)
So be it. Worship nature rather than God if you so choose. But here's something else to think about from Sir Isaac Newton: "Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors." It is senseless indeed.
Atheism certainly has advanced Darwinism as doctrinal and fundamental to the spread of their religion. Darwinism advanced on the basis of misconceptions such as uniformitarianism and the expectation of transitional fossils that have not been found. All fossils are fully formed with fully operational features...those fossils that are in any way complete. Most people do not realize that the majority of vertebrate fossils are incomplete and that paleontologists make educated guesses about the missing portions.
Another misconception foisted upon the public is the fossil record itself. There are very few fossils of "higher" organisms in the fossil record. Here is a chart from Creation Digest in 2002 that shows how few vertebrate fossils have actually been found in comparison to the total fossils found:
Recently that percentage must have grown a tiny bit because of hard work by paleontologists in the USA and China. Unfortunately for Darwinists a few recent fossils have turned out to be, at least in part, to be remains rather than fossils. Since we now know fossilization can take place within a few years in the right conditions, the finding of actual remains puts the lie to millions of years of evolution. Of course that has to stand in line with a LOT of reasons Darwinism is a bunch of blarney. Mike Toler's comprehensive guide is a good place to start if you wish to acquaint yourself with the basic facts concerning origins.
If Hawkeye and Highboy and Angel and I were to all sit down for a chat we might disagree on some small points but not the big ones. Darwinism is certainly a humbug and the idea that atheism is NOT a religion is also humbuggery. Aha, I have coined a new word!!!
"When did science - including as practiced by the Christian scientists of centuries past in that list you parade around once in a while - ever "include the supernatural element"? Ever?"
Enter Hawkeye in Technicolor:
I think you miss the point. It's not so much that scientists, including Christian scientists, used a "supernatural element" in their experiments -- as if they could summon angels or demons to participate in their human venture. Rather, it is that the scientists who performed those experiments believed in a supernatural God and were seeking to understand the supernatural laws which govern His creation.
For example, Sir Isaac Newton viewed gravity as a "supernatural" force that was simply inconceivable. He said: "Tis inconceivable that inanimate brute matter should (without the mediation of something else which is not material) operate upon & affect other matter without mutual contact."
Though he is better known for his love of science, the Bible was Sir Isaac Newton's greatest passion. He devoted more time to the study of Scripture than to science, and he said, "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." He spent a great deal of time trying to discover hidden messages within the Bible. He looked for clues to world around him in the Word of God.
Newton saw God as the masterful creator whose existence could not be denied in the face of the grandeur of all creation. He warned against using the law of gravity to view the universe as a mere machine, like a great clock. He said: "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being... This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called "Lord God" παντοκρατωρ [pantokratōr], or "Universal Ruler"... The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, [and] absolutely perfect."
In this regard, Newton is not unlike many other early scientists who were seeking to understand how God has ordered His universe. The Bible portrays God as the one who brings order to the universe. In the beginning there was nothing but chaos. "The earth was without form and [there was nothing but a] void." There was no light, because "darkness was upon the face of the deep [space]." So what does God do? God creates light and separates light from darkness. He creates the earth. He separates water from dry land. He creates plants and animals "according to their own kinds". Finally He creates humans.
According to the Bible, God makes the sun to rise and set each day. He brings the seasons every year. He makes the snow to fall, and plants to grow. Genesis 8:22 says: "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease." He provides a sun for the day and a moon for the night. He puts the stars in their place. God brings order to the universe.
It is only because God brings order and regularity to the universe, that science could be born. Science depends on the fact that there are regularities in the world. Without regularities, there would ultimately be nothing to study. Scientists depend not only on the regularities with which they are already familiar, but they also postulate that still more regularities will be found in areas that they have yet to investigate.
When these regularities are discovered, measured, quantified and determined to be reproducible in the laboratory, they are defined as "laws". Thus, we have Newton's laws, Boyle's law, Dalton's law, Mendel's laws, Kirchhoff's laws, etc. What you and many others refer to as "natural laws", are in fact the "scientific laws" that early scientists believed were established by God to bring order His universe.
The fact that you call them "natural laws" suggests that you have taken them away from God and turned them over to nature. You have taken them from the Creator and turned them over to the creation. That is what the author means when he says: "Naturalists take title to the deed of science without making proper payment."
Why did the early scientists believe that God established all these laws? Quite frankly, it is because these laws reveal the fingerprint of God Himself. They bear His attributes. Allow me to explain...
Scientists think of laws as universal in time and space. That is to say, that if it is really a "law" that is correctly formulated and qualified, then it holds true for "all places" and "all times". In other words, it is "omnipresent" and "eternal". The classic terms of omnipresence (in all places) and eternity (at all times) are traditionally attributed to God.
Other divine attributes belong to scientific laws. If a law holds for all times, we must presume that it will be the same law throughout all time. The law does not change with time. Therefore it is unchangeable or "immutable". In Malachi 3:6 God says: "For I the LORD do not change."
Next, scientific laws are basically ideas. We do not literally see a law, but only the effects of the law on the material world. The law is essentially immaterial and invisible, but is known through its effects. Likewise, God is essentially immaterial and invisible, but is known through His acts in the world.
Finally, real scientific laws (as opposed to scientists’ approximations of them) are also absolutely, infallibly true. Truthfulness is another attribute of God.
The Bible tells us that the hand of God can be found by an examination of His handiwork: "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made" (Romans 1:19-20a).
The Bible also tells us that some people absolutely refuse to accept the truth and "worship" the creation rather than the Creator: "they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools... because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (Romans 1:21b-22,25)
So be it. Worship nature rather than God if you so choose. But here's something else to think about from Sir Isaac Newton: "Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors." It is senseless indeed.
Atheism certainly has advanced Darwinism as doctrinal and fundamental to the spread of their religion. Darwinism advanced on the basis of misconceptions such as uniformitarianism and the expectation of transitional fossils that have not been found. All fossils are fully formed with fully operational features...those fossils that are in any way complete. Most people do not realize that the majority of vertebrate fossils are incomplete and that paleontologists make educated guesses about the missing portions.
Another misconception foisted upon the public is the fossil record itself. There are very few fossils of "higher" organisms in the fossil record. Here is a chart from Creation Digest in 2002 that shows how few vertebrate fossils have actually been found in comparison to the total fossils found:
Recently that percentage must have grown a tiny bit because of hard work by paleontologists in the USA and China. Unfortunately for Darwinists a few recent fossils have turned out to be, at least in part, to be remains rather than fossils. Since we now know fossilization can take place within a few years in the right conditions, the finding of actual remains puts the lie to millions of years of evolution. Of course that has to stand in line with a LOT of reasons Darwinism is a bunch of blarney. Mike Toler's comprehensive guide is a good place to start if you wish to acquaint yourself with the basic facts concerning origins.
If Hawkeye and Highboy and Angel and I were to all sit down for a chat we might disagree on some small points but not the big ones. Darwinism is certainly a humbug and the idea that atheism is NOT a religion is also humbuggery. Aha, I have coined a new word!!!